The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

If you think 'hysterical' is misogynist then there's no helping you.

In most cases, hysterical is used with a misogynistic intent. Because it's virtually never applied to men.

MissBax that is a wider debate. My point was more that this (like so many MN threads) has been started with the aim of demonising transwomen. Cherry picking somr of the more extreme trans viewpoints that a lot of women may find uncomfortable. And reflecting these things as the aims for transwomen as a whole. Much in the same way the far right will cherry pick some of the most extreme views and practises of some Muslim and say they reflect all Muslims.

In what ways are women's rights different to human rights?

Women's rights are human rights. However without a definition of 'woman' we can no longer monitor the extent to which women are disproportionately denied their human rights in comparison with men. We can no longer put measures in place (e.g. sex-segregated spaces) to mitigate this inequality.

Of course it's the erosion of women.

When the word woman means man and jobs, resources, spaves dedicated to women are taken over by men where does that leave actual women?

Send them home? Stil means an appointment taken up to do that.

1DAD
The cherry-picked examples, one of which I posted, are perfect examples of males who would exploit new laws for malicious intent. It is these males who are the target of resistance. And there’s no reason to believe that such males will be uncommon occurances.

1DAD it isn't cherry picking though. TRA's are claiming transwomen are women. The GRA is being changed so that anyone can "identify" as whatever sex they choose. This is happening right now, and is already affecting women.

Sorry I apologise, I phrased that wrong. I didn't mean that all woman share a 'type' of mind. I've hardly slept so not making much sense. I meant that they genuinely feel in the wrong body, so their brain is telling them they are a female but they have the body of a male.

Also I apologise about saying they don't say they are the same as biological women. I hadn't read those links and I'm quite amazed tbh. But that is only a percentage of trans people, not every trans person.

I only know of 1 trans women but she has told me lots about her friends and their fights. She, born a man, fully understands that she is different from me and from what she has told me, so do her friends.

I'll never know why some women feel the need to have a definition.

Because there are certain rights that are specific to biology. Maternity rights, reproductive rights, the right not to be sex trafficked, the right to not be sold into marriage. If you can’t define the biological class to whom this is happening, you can’t talk about it.

Also that statement completely ignores the inherent power dynamic between men and women. If you don’t think there is one fine. No point in talking to you.

Saying transwomen are women. Obviously everyone knows they’re not actually biologically women so the point is redefining the word woman to mean a social class, rather than a biological class.

Which I can understand. It’s not illogical.

But the point where it loses all all credibility and rationale is where the social class woman (if you have decided there is one) suddenly gets the rights of the sex class woman. It switches from being a social class based on inclusivity to sex class based on biology, when rights are involved.

That’s why people ask you to define the word woman. Because either it’s a social class, in which case why does it get the rights of a sex class? Or it’s sex class, which excludes men, trans or not.

If you want to dispense with the sex class category altogether and categorise by gender, that completely ignores the inherent power dynamic between men and women. It ignores the fact that sexual violence is a predominantly male crime. It ignores the fact that transwomen have the exact same criminality pattern as any other man.

It ignores the dominance of the hierarchy that women are subjected to.

It ignores women’s rights entirely.

And that’s why it’s profoundly misogynistic.

What are the more extreme viewpoints that are being picked that we are pretending reflect transwomen as a whole?

For me it’s the ‘trans women are women’ bit that I have a problem with, and this isn’t a fringe idea. In fact the Labour Party, the Conservative party, the Green Party the Lib Dem’s, heck even the girl guides take this line, and women who want to discuss it are silenced, threatened and no platformed.

This isn’t about individual trans people, it’s about legislation that is about to pass that will redefine the word woman from meaning something between your legs to something between your ears.

My point was more that this (like so many MN threads) has been started with the aim of demonising transwomen. Cherry picking somr of the more extreme trans viewpoints that a lot of women may find uncomfortable.

It's nothing to do with demonising transwomen. It doesn't matter if this is just a few extremists. They are the ones who are being listened to. They are the ones who are getting laws changed to the detriment of women. They are the ones who are silencing women.

I meant that they genuinely feel in the wrong body, so their brain is telling them they are a female but they have the body of a male. - so body dysmophic disorder then? I accept this must be very distressing for those who suffer from it, but why are laws being changed to facilitate this, at the expense of women and women's safe spaces?!

That second link is an archetypal example of autogynephilia. Where a man fetishises women’s biology to the point where he, quite genuinely, craves the experience of it himself. It’s sexually arousing, which is why he says he gets turned on. It’s profoundly compulsive, which is why he doesn’t give a monkeys about the mother.

Completely different to the sometimes sensual/sexual feeling a woman might have breastfeeding.

That’s just biology. It’s not a fetish.

I meant that they genuinely feel in the wrong body, so their brain is telling them they are a female but they have the body of a male.

But the proposal is that gender dysphoria (the phenomenon you describe here) is taken out of the definition of being trans. That's the whole point of the new legislation. It's now considered transphobic to think you need dysphoria to be trans.

Theresa May: “We’ve set out plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act, streamlining and de-medicalising the process for changing gender, because being trans is not an illness and it shouldn’t be treated as such.”

Fric, on the surface that's all well and good, but dig a little deeper and you have different scenarios.

Let's say you have a daughter.
If the self identification right goes through, it's as good as saying that transwomen are women.
This means for your daughter (or niece, or friend) that as a sportswoman they may never reach the starting block, or make the cut to be amongst the chosen few to represent their country, because there are other women, bigger, stronger, with the benefit of going through male puberty and having male bone structure taking up the places (this isn't being hysterical, this is something that's starting to be seen regularly).
If your daughter/niece/friend has been raped/assaulted/harassed (and let's face it, the chances of that are high) and develops an entirely understandable fear of men, she will not be able to go to a women only refuge, she will not be able to ask to be treated in hospital by a female nurse, she will not be able to ask to have her smear test performed by a woman, because men can identify as women and that's enough to make them women.
If your daughter/niece/friend ends up in prison, she may be imprisoned alongside convicted male rapists who are now women.
Women only scholarships, designed to give women (who don't have the benefit of male socialisation and confidence) a career boost, or a leg up into male dominated work places, will become obsolete as places will go to men (bit shaky on the details here, but a scholarship/award in the memory of Jo Cox, of five spaces, two have gone to men, with their male privilege).
And this doesn't even touch on the amount of crap to make things fair for transwomen, sorry, women, and the erasing of female anatomy names in order to placate a small minority of aggressive, vocal trams rights activists.

And comparing this to racism doesn't stand up. The only way this would compare is if black people are told categorically that there's no such thing as racism, because blacked up white people say so, and to shut up, you're being a racist scumbag to even considering that there's a biological difference between black people and white people with makeup on to look black.
It's ridiculous.

In a aim to scare others and feed negativity against transwomen
You've completely missed the point but then you're not being told to surrender your hard won rights, rights necessary to address the discrimination you suffer because of your biology.
Trans politics demands far more of women than it does of men ... If men were genuinely invested in supporting trans women, there’s an obvious thing they could do: stop pretending it is inevitable for “masculine” men to respond with violence to the idea that those who wish to socially transition to womanhood remain biologically male. As feminists have been arguing for decades, maleness and femininity can coexist. If the thought of that makes some men violent, then the problem lies with how men see maleness, not with feminists refusing to treat womanhood as a catch-all category for anything men don’t want to be.
www.independent.co.uk/voices/feminism-transpolitics-liberal-male-commentators-sexism-gender-roles-a7649546.html

so body dysmophic disorder then? I accept this must be very distressing for those who suffer from it, but why are laws being changed to facilitate this, at the expense of women and women's safe spaces?!

Quite.

Although, I'm not sure that I understand what all this "brain of a woman" stuff is either.

I have the body of a woman. I am a woman. I experience the life events of being a woman. I experience the benefits and the setbacks of being a woman. I don't really enjoy stereotypically 'female' interests. I certainly don't recognise myself in the women I see on TV or in magazines in any capacity!

How would I know if I think like a woman or have woman's brain or not?

I'm just a person in this body getting on with it. Like most people.

Ironically I think they have got to the point where in order to achieve their goals of being accepted as women the have pretty much PC'd them selves out of their own existence.

Pretty soon they are going to have to start fighting amongst themselves to determine who's a woman given nothing needs to change besides what you call yourself.

Where does that leave people who went through surgery.

I have an issue with the implication that womanhood is a choice, that woman could just choose not to be women anymore and therefore they are complicit in any shit that happens to them because of their biology.

Woman is not a costume

I like that phrase.

In large part, IMO, the issue with transwomen is that as men they are less accepted (for wanting to dress in "female" clothing, wearing make up, etc) as men than as presenting as women.
That's, in great part, because gender stereotyping is alive, strong, and kicking, instead of being recognised that as men and as women we have different tastes.

As women, we've won acceptance to wear trousers and short hair, and to engage in traditional male activities.
Men, it seems, prefer to stick to gender stereotypes and consider that any man who prefers traditional female looks or activities are women. I think it's mostly a reaction to feminism, in fact.
I'd like to see how accepting are men of any woman who just "identifies" as a man.
I might try that and just enter a gym male locker as a self identifying male. See what happens.

@fricative I am seriously offended that you made parallels with racism and homophobia - I am most certainly not any of those things. I would also not label myself a 'terf' - I am canvassing opinions and opening up a debate. As I said, I am on the f nice with the Trans debate but posts like the one on twitter do nothing for the Trans debate other than provoke and erase women's experience.

so body dysmophic disorder then? I accept this must be very distressing for those who suffer from it, but why are laws being changed to facilitate this, at the expense of women and women's safe spaces?!

Yes that is the terms I was reaching for. No I do agree that you can't sacrifice the many to save the few. You can't make changes to improve one group of people when it directly impairs the life and rights of another group of people. The whole movement should be to help trans people through their transition and help them settle back into society post transition, but not at the cost of others.

How would I know if I think like a woman or have woman's brain or not?

I suppose the fact that you don't feel any disjunction between your brain and body means that yours 'match up'.
I don't experience this either so I genuinely don't know, I'm just going off what transpeople have expressed about being in the wrong body.

Quite, if I decided today that I'm no longer a woman, it won't change the fact that I'm suffering from hyperemesis which is wrecking my ability to do my job, and, well, function above a basic level.

Also, the idea that transwomen have suffered more discrimination and victimisation than your average woman is ludicrous. Even if they've felt like they have a lady brain (heh) society has treated them as the big galumphing blokes they are. I seriously doubt they've had The Fear as they walk down a dark street at night, the workplace discrimination, the low key sexual assaults disguised as "just being friendly". Bollocks, utter bollocks. Now they have double the privilege - the male privilege they were born with, and the "ur so brave hun" trans privilege they've gained

1DAD I have seen you talk about this before and I'm afraid I got the impression you were confused between transsexual and transgender.

your comments here about a "minority" are making me wonder if you are still a bit confused? I was confused for a long time, please don't see that as a criticism. I just want to be sure I'm reading your comments in the correct context and that you know how the GRA works.