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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The working mums on school night out

259 replies

TimothyTaylor · 01/12/2017 10:16

I went to our school festive drinks thing last night. A large portion of the evening was spent with a group of mums (who all work outside of the home) trying to "boost my confidence" and "help with my cv" and "help me to explore my power" (wtf). They seemed on a mission to get me back into work. I am a sahm through choice. I sometimes joke about getting a job for a break etc (just a joke) but am very happy in my role at home for now. They made me feel a bit sad and pathetic, as if I was only at home because I had no self-belief or confidence to go back to work. I said firmly but nicely on a couple of occasions that I wasn't working through choice and was happy to do that - but even that elicited "of course but in a couple of years when you're ready you must blah blah blah". Then I got the old "I admire you for sacrificing so much for your kids - being at home all day would do me in". Somehow that always feels like a jibe.

Anyway, it just left me feeling a bit irritated that there's a sense of sahms all being mad jealous of working mums and that we're only at home because we can't get a job!

Maybe they were just pissed. I know no harm was meant...

OP posts:
Babbitywabbit · 02/12/2017 18:48

You said you’re thinking about getting a job to have a break? You sound like a right charmer. I imagine they were just responding to your wind up.

I’ve Always been a WOHM, now in my 50s with adult kids. It’s been great, experiencing all the joys of parenting and also having a work life. But frankly being a parent and running a home without holding down a job too would hardly have been the difficult option!

Zadig · 02/12/2017 18:48

Lipstick - I find your attitude very disturbing, given that you have children.
You appear to think that "childcare" equates to doing stuff round the house with the kids on the sideline. That all these jobs need not be spread out during the day, they can be fitted into the evenings / weekends.
Well yes, of course the jobs can be fitted in around a job.
BUT CHILDREN DO NOT GO INTO SUSPENDED ANIMATION DURING THE DAY!!
Sorry I had to shout. But do you not realise that women become SAHMs to do the minute-to-minute "being there" with the DC. Housework has nothing to do with it.
Children exist every second of every day - of course you can't just cram them into the evenings! Nor can you equate bringing up children with housework or other "jobs". As I say, I find the fact that you can't make the distinction very disturbing.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 02/12/2017 18:52

Applying your example zadig what about sahm with no kids at home. What are they doing whilst the kids are at school?
In that scenario The kids are in the care of ...working women Not mum

GirlInterruptedOftenByKids · 02/12/2017 18:57

I think a lot of people assumed your kids were all school age. YANBU to want to stay home with a baby. I love working but I also enjoyed being a WAHM when dc2 was little so I didn't have to leave her

perfectstorm · 02/12/2017 18:58

I find the extremes on both sides uncomfortable. They're easy to dismiss as they are clearly nonsense, but they're also understandable, given they arise from defensiveness. If there weren't so many attacks, then there wouldn't be the dogmatism, either. It's self-perpetuating.

I don't feel any defensiveness, because having one child who is autistic and gifted, and can't even cope with fulltime school, never mind any further transfers of care, and a toddler currently undergoing assessment for autism and/or ADHD and who has been identified as even more gifted than her sibling (as far as one can tell when they are so small - but that is the present professional assessment) and can't cope with more than 3 mornings a week at a preschool due to sensory stress, it's the simple reality that only one person in this family can sustain a career. We discussed which of us it should be, after recognising that two part time salaries wouldn't work and nor would shared autistic-level sleep deprivation, and as I'm the one with the background in child law, it made more sense for me to do it as I can most effectively advocate for the support and educational provision our children need. I imagine even your views would allow for that as a valid choice? Perhaps not - it doesn't really matter, because it is the one that best serves the children, and therefore us.

None of that info is really relevant to the main point, which is that both options are valid in a standard family scenario, and it's depressing seeing women who have opted for either feel the need to defend themselves against attack by attacking the other, rejected choice. It's internalised misogyny writ large. Whichever side of the line it comes from.

CharisMama · 02/12/2017 18:59

I work ft but I agree with perfect storm. What's wrong with the world is that women's LARGELY free contribution to the wheels of society keeping in motion is not valued. Yeh yeh one answer to that is get out there and make life hard for yourself by working forty hours a week and commuting for ten so that other people mightn't be able to make you feel bad but there's always gonna be somebody who can make you feel you don't have enough...........time, status, money, love, glamour, gloss. Working forty hours a week is a legacy from an era when men worked and came home to everything taken care of, and now we have women trying to do that as well. I would love to see the four day week become the normal. Then there'd be a demand for the labour of women who'd been out of the market for a while. Fathers would end up being more likely to do a day's childcare here or there (let's hope) women would be more likely to feel that it would be worth their while financially and emotionally and practically to work, without worrying that their children were a bit neglected. I think my son is a bit neglected. He spends too much time on the computer when I'm not there to force him to log off. But if I don't work I can't pay for my daughter's 3rd level education. It isn't easy. There is no right decision. I'd never judge anybody who was just pleasant and good company on a night out because frankly I could do with a good night out. Wine

Zadig · 02/12/2017 19:02

Well all my DC are at school now and I freely admit I don't spend the days doing housework. I have a cleaner anyway - housework isn't the point.
Why do I need to justify my time anyway? If we needed the money, I'd do something about it.
I did have 8 years of being with at least one preschool child, all day every day. Never used childcare, nannies and family overseas.
I just think it's utterly ridiculous and delusional to think that you can condense children into evenings.
I have less input into my DC now because they are at school. The teachers are occupying them and influencing them in those hours - not me. I am not there. That's obvious.

Slightlyperturbedowlagain · 02/12/2017 19:04

Well once and had to endure lenghty conversations about bathroom tiles.
Xmas Grin other boring ones for mums' nights out IME include people moaning on and on about getting fines for taking holidays in term time (twice every year in this particular case) because the children sometimes get half an hour of a film on a Friday afternoon and therefore barely ever learn anything anyway Hmm and other ridiculous and trivial complaints about the school/teachers/head.
Oh and the whole SAHM vs WOHM. Do what you want/have to do. Noone cares. I WOH partly because I don't like being 1 week away from penury. I am fortunate that I sometimes like my job. Other times it is awful and I would gladly swap to be a SAHM. Sometimes I really resent the way it stops me spending time with my DCs that would really benefit them. I don't seriously believe that any other mum in any situation doesn't sometimes wish they had a piece of the other. I do think what we can all agree on however is that the real pain is felt by mums who are working all hours out of the home in a job they hate and are still barely managing to pay for the basics. Xmas Sad

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 02/12/2017 19:06

So therefore your time with dc is condensed to After school, weekends
And your do sees them after he’s finished work. Evening and weekend
Not so dissimilar to me then...

Zadig · 02/12/2017 19:20

What is your point though Lipstick?

If you have young DC not in school (which is what I thought we are taking about), it's is physically impossible to have the same level of input as a SAHM if you are not at home with them all day.

That is an obvious fact. Unless you think that the only time that counts in your children's lives are the evenings / weekends and the rest of their time is meaningless.

You can cram housework in whenever you like - hoover at midnight if you must or don't do it at all.

But you can't squeeze 10 hours of real-time existence into three hours - unless you can warp time. And time is the point for SAHMs.

We are not talking about DC in school, we are talking about pre-school DC. Once DC are in school, there is no option - it's the law. But you spend less hours parenting then. So why try and pretend it's any different with DC in a nursery setting or with childminders?

Mummadeeze · 02/12/2017 19:28

Honestly, reading your transcript, it just sounds like drunken misplaced advice. I am a Mum who works full time and I love my job, so I do genuinely struggle to imagine that someone would choose not to pursue a career and combine it with being a Mum because I find my working life so fulfilling. I wouldn't say the things they said to you sober (because it was a bit patronising and you clearly said you are happy as you are). But I can see how that conversation happened when fuelled by alcohol. I definitely don't think they saw you as pathetic or inadequate for not working, I think they were drunkenly just not being very empathetic. Also, sometimes working Mums feel a bit guilty so they might have been over compensating a bit too. Don't over think it though, drunken conversations are often never thought of again after nights out on champagne!

Maireadplastic · 02/12/2017 19:50

'how I longed just to talk to someone about what was on the tv or world affairs.'

Because SAHMs only talk about nappies and cleaning products and WOHM only talk about politics.

perfectstorm · 02/12/2017 19:51

There's a big difference between parents there from 4, and parents there from 7 - and there's also a difference between a parent who has to rush around doing all the domestic chores as soon as you get in, instead of being able to spend time with you. I speak as a child whose mum had to work fulltime, as a single parent, and who therefore had to stay with a childminder before and after school. I knew the sound of my mum's car engine, from endless afternoons and evenings listening out for it. It wasn't fun, tbh. I so, so envied my peers, whose days ended when school did, and could relax in their own homes, with their own mums. But you know what would have been even less fun? Living on benefits, in Thatcher's London. She made the right choice for all of us, in that individual situation. Unquestionably. And the weekends were great, too. She made sure they were. She was a good parent in the confines of the rather awful position in which she found herself.

There are choices. Which a family makes depends on their circumstances.

I agree with the PP who pointed out that what we need are changed working hours, so both parents can spend more time with their kids, whilst also ensuring that they can provide well for them and offer a double buffer against job loss. It's a structural solution we need, not one afforded by pressuring all women to shoulder a double workload. And almost all studies show precisely that; that once children arrive, even the most egalitarian of families slowly yet inexorably slide into a situation where the women do the overwhelming bulk of domestic chores and child-related, as well as overt child, care. It's so entrenched into our cultural understanding that men and women somehow end up in that pattern, despite being quite certain at an earlier life stage that they wouldn't. Study after study demonstrates this. It's a knotty and difficult issue, and one that will need a siesmic shift in thinking, IMO - and it will need to start with mandatory split parental leave, and shorter working hours for everyone, and a greater investment in top quality, affordable childcare. The Scandinavian approach, in short. Because right now, as we are doing it in this country, capitalism has co-opted feminism and created a world in which you mostly find two parents working flat out, while the woman is also doing all the drudge work of running a home, and yet another woman is paid what are usually extremely low wages for the childcare thus out-sourced. And all that labour doesn't provide a standard of living any better than that our parents had, with one paid worker.

It's also worth pointing out that this is, and always was, to some extent a class issue. Poor women have always had to work outside the home. At least the modern ubiquity of that has forced standards up - my own primary years childminder wouldn't be allowed to practice at all now.

It's not feminist to attack women trying to balance their family lives with working. Whatever direction you do it from. The fact it's such a hard juggle for almost all of us comes, again, from structural sexism. From the way in which domestic labour is deemed valueless, and as such, no adjustments need be made. It's invisible, that labour, which is why men so blithely opt out, seemingly without noticing. That puts so many women's backs against the wall - either they sacrifice a working life, or they jump onto a treadmill of domestic labour, squeezed in around the margins of their working lives. Neither is ideal.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 02/12/2017 20:31

I’m not attacking women. I’m critical of a patriarchy that is maintained by women giving up careers,stepping back and facilitating men. And patriarchy is reinforced by the conscious and unconscious notion that childcare is women’s work. Men don’t get berated for working ft,women do.thats a significant issue

Working women on this thread have been called judgemental sneering hags that went without comment.

CharisMama · 02/12/2017 20:35

I wouldn't work if I I didn't have to worry about money. I'd do a dress making course and read and relax and cook and go to the gym and do a philosophy degree and just enjoy my life. People who love working, well, that's great but I sit at my desk and although I don't hate it, it feels bizarrely random in a way that being at home in my own house doesn't feel. I'd have a great life if I didn't worry about the future and needing an income of some description

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 20:38

But childcare is as valuable as 'out of the home' careers. So saying that the 'partriarchy is maintained by childcare being women's work' makes no sense to me. it is like saying 'the patriarchy is maintained by women being surgeons'.

It is only if those like Lipstick regard childcare as 'of no account' that the fact that more women do it is seen as 'facilitating men;'. If the work of caring for the next generation is given its proper value, there is no issue.

Zadig · 02/12/2017 20:43

Great post perfect storm. The only issue with the Scandinavian system (as I understand it) is that women are strongly encouraged to put their DC in full-time nursery from the age of one. As far as I'm concerned, if I had to work then I would have done and that would have been the best parenting choice, but I certainly don't need the government telling me where to put my kids!

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 20:44

It's probably worth clarifying that both DH and I have, at various points, been the full-time SAHP, equally valued to the out of home worker,m as well as both sometimes being part time. We happen to both work out of the home at the moment, as the DC are older. There isn't a 'heirarchy' in which whoever works out of the home at the time is 'the most important', whether that be me or DH. It's a family team, bringing up the DC as best we can. To me, that's normal.

Zadig · 02/12/2017 20:47

cantkeep - I agree. Not everything of value is economic and until that is recognised fully, women will always be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 02/12/2017 22:01

But if some women depend on men for their financials that’s a bigger rock and a hard place
It’s all very woolly and a bit woof to characterise things women do as not commoditised. Yea sure,cause being like caring fills a fridge. That notion of female qualities eg caring. That embodies what some of holds women back. We don’t need to earn money,just be nice.
No one says to boys, there’s more to life than finances..they’re exoected to get on with it and earn. To be financal

Uk is a 1st world capitalist economy, financial is a big part of life we lead and how we get by. So platitudes like it’s not all about money are a bit hollow

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 22:05

It is the job - the most important job - of all parents to bring their children up to be the best possible members of the next generation.

They can choose to do this by 1 parent working, and the other doing more of the hands on childcare, by both working less and sharing the childcare, or by both working and purchasing childcare - or, if one becomes a single parent or for other reasons neither can work, then the cost of maintaining good parenting for the next generation can be covered by the state in the form of benefits.

Why is any other work more important? What else that you have worked for, other than your children, will you genuinely leave behind you once you are dead?

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 22:11

I agree that, if at all possible, the 'family unit as a whole' should have some worked-for income coming in, because for the next generation to be a success, living above the poeverty line if pretty much essential. however, whether that comes from the mother, the father, both together or a little bit less from each than they would earmn if they were non-parents are all fine solutions for me.

Running down 'caring' because it has in the past been seen as 'women's work' is the wrong way round. We should be celebrating all work equally, and then caring wouldn't be seen as 'lesser work' than out of home work.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 02/12/2017 22:12

What will I leave?i feel I’ve made a contribution. I’ve trained others up. I have liked my career
Is this the old no one lies on death bed thinking of work?really..I will recall it fondly

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 22:16

I, also, like my career - and am likely to live on as 'Do you remember that strange Mrs Can't?' whenever old pupils gather. The fact remains that my own and my DH's most important work will have have been our children.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/12/2017 22:19

I do think that there are some people who never make the 'value switch' from 'adults' to 'parents' - so their children exist, but remain slight appendages to a life lived slightly around rather than with them.

It sounds as if you, Lipstick, are one of these, because your value for your own work remains so high, and you do not recognise childcare as an activity at all, equating it exactly to housework.

It's a difference in values.