In not wanting to be a feminist

[tireddotcom72]

I know I’m not alone as have had this conversation with friends but does anyone else feel PC stuff is just going too far now. The gender stuff is confusing me - I’m female always have been always will be and perfectly happy that way I don’t want to identify whatever that means with anything else and change my mind or whatever the gender fluid thing is ( that really confuses me) I’m mum to a daughter - who when younger was a pink, princess, Barbie loving frilly dress wearing child. I loved her wearing pretty dresses and wanting pretty hair. I’ve always worked in female dominated jobs - through choice no one forced me from being little I wanted to be cabin crew, my parents would have preferred me to be a solicitor, accountant or doctor like my siblings but supported my decision to go into the beauty industry because that’s what I was happy doing.
When I was younger I was whistled at in the street, had my bum pinched in nightclubs etc I wasn’t offended or outraged.

I don’t want to live in a genderless world, I don’t want my teenage daughter being in gender neutral changing rooms, I don’t even like being referred to as someone’s partner I’m quite happy being called his girlfriend.

I don’t want to offend anyone with my probably old fashioned views - I’m not even old! But I’m getting fed up of constantly hearing and reading about what I should think and believe, i mean the latest fuss about Sleeping beauty ..... what will pc brigade want to ban next?

If she does not understand feminism now and genuiknely does think its all about wanting to rid the world of 'girly' things (and also seems to think people are overreacting to get upset about random men groping them), shes not going to realistically. So come out with silly things, get pulled up on it. I don't really see the issue with that. Some replies have been overly harsh, but I am not sure what the OP expected...given how they clearly just wanted to goad in the first place. They got exactly what they wanted, I think.

I kind of get what you're saying but think you've confused what a feminist is.
Feminism is about having equal rights and opportunities.
However, I do get some of what you're saying. There are some people (not necessarily feminists) who are taking things too far. Now girls who like pink and stereotypically girly things are seen as weaker. It only seems to be okay to like pink if you're a boy. My dd hides away to play with some toys after she was laughed at for being girly by a friend's parent. We have tried to tell her it's fine to play with whatever she wants but this seems to have stuck. 😕.
I like options. I like the fact that I can choose to work or choose to stay home with my kids. I like the fact that men can choose that too - equality.
I've made choices that suit me. I like being the wife at home. I like having doors opened for me or being treat like a 'lady' but I know others find it offensive. I also know that if in future I choose a different role then I can.
I hate the idea of gender neutral. Nothing wrong with being a boy or girl.
... But still, your idea of feminism is incorrect.

I think I understand what you mean.
I'm a girly girl. I love makeup, doing my hair, wearing dresses etc. I hate being told that because I'm female, I've been socially conditioned to like those thing, yet if I was male, I would be forward thinking and ground breaking. It's as if women can't enjoy the more feminine aspects of life anymore without criticism.
However, YABU to confuse this with feminism.

Alexkate - sorry, but the choice to stay home or go to work is less to do with feminism than economics. If you can stay home and be a SAHM it's usually because a man is facilitating that financially as he's going out to work to support the family (unless you've a trust fund in the background). Fine if that works in a relationship but often long term it doesn't. There are enough women that have handed their man that power and it hasn't worked out. They haven't protected themselves and realised too late - i.e. when they have four kids and haven't worked in ten years. What a great choice to promote! I wish women on mumsnet would stop saying it as it's detrimental overall.

And, sorry, while in theory men can also choose to stay home (and great you "like" that) in reality that doesn't usually happen as someone has to bring in the money. Unless you can get the state to pay. So the women's choice is not because feminism allows that but because the man does ultimately.

I often see on mumsnet the trite ooh you can stay home if you want as feminism is all about choice. I think it's bullshit. It's not that simple. If you can stay home you've usually got a man facilitating it, plus you can put yourself in a precarious position. Since when was feminism about that? The other things said a couple of times on this thread is yes as a woman you can opt out of being a feminist because it's all about choice and that's your choice. Utter rubbish. If you don't believe in the fundamentals of feminism - that we're equal to men and are entitled to the same opportunities - then you're a self-sabotaging idiot. There is no grey area.

The OP didn't say she's a feminist but doesn't particularly like what the word has come to signify. She came out with statement after statement of nonsense.

"Gender neutral" doesn't mean not acknowledging that boy and girls exist. It very simply means not arbitrarily categorising things into boy/girl (often codified as blue/pink) that don't need to be categorised in that way, and that don't need to be different for boys/girls.

This idea that pink and stereotypically feminine things are less valued than blue and stereotypically masculine things is not part of any feminism that I recognise. There is a separate issue with girls being socialised to consider their appearance to be more important than other things about them. It was shown very clearly in the recent BBC two part show about gender stereotyping. The girls focus on the appearance was shocking at such a young age, and led to them massively undervaluing themselves in other areas. That needs to be addressed, but it doesn't mean that a girl is wrong for enjoying things like playing with hairstyles.

VladmirsPoutine

"My first post on this thread said that whilst I don't subscribe to a / various brands of feminism known to MN I do support equality and parity between men and women"

What you actually said was that you're "Not a feminist by UK standards at all". The standard definition of which is support for women's rights based on the principle of equality of the sexes.

UK standards of feminism cover equality and parity and also the right to education, to vote, to work and to hold public office.

If you believe that you're a feminist by "UK standards" & all you're actually saying is that you don't agree with all feminists or everyone on MN.

"I'm a girly girl. I love makeup, doing my hair, wearing dresses etc. I hate being told that because I'm female, I've been socially conditioned to like those thing, yet if I was male, I would be forward thinking and ground breaking. It's as if women can't enjoy the more feminine aspects of life anymore without criticism."

Well. There are two things here. You have been socially conditioned to like these things- we are all the products of out society and our culture. But that's not a bad thing. One of the important things about feminism is thinking about why we behave in the ways we do and making active decisions about whether they are things we want to keep on doing. And I'm sad you've been criticized for liking traditionally feminine things. In my experience ( I have obviously been luckier than you) the people most likely to do this are non/anti feminists " Ha! Call yourself a feminist? Why are you wearing that dress, then?" As if the only people they recognize as feminists are dungaree clad caricatures and they have somehow caught you out wearing something pretty!

YANBU to want to live your own life the way you want, but YABU to want to impose your views on others if you're going to confuse feminism with gender fluidity/genderlessness, which are completely unrelated concepts. A feminist can still be pretty and pink if she wants to - I consider myself a feminist to the core, because I support the equality issues other posters have pointed out, and frankly can't understand why any woman wouldn't - I'm also sitting here typing this in a lipstick-pink top having just applied a full face of makeup.

Additionally, if you think bottom-pinching is inoffensive, you're entitled to your opinion, but previous decades' normalisation of stuff like that (and at 50 I am old enough to remember it, lol) meant that females who disliked it were made to feel they were being oversensitive/couldn't take a joke etc. And one doesn't have to be a feminist to think that that's not OK.

What's interesting about this quote:

I'm a girly girl. I love makeup, doing my hair, wearing dresses etc. I hate being told that because I'm female, I've been socially conditioned to like those thing, yet if I was male, I would be forward thinking and ground breaking

Is that the writer seems to be oblivious to the sexism she has swallowed. Women have long been dismissively stereotyped as vain and shallow and preoccupied with their appearance.

She's confusing two things: 1) that men and women are to certain extent conditioned in their interests and b) the sexism that holds that men are more original, dynamic, pioneering etc.

That was the wrong thing to post on Mumsnet OP! I haven't waded through all 14 pages because it was obvious from page 1 what you were getting but I do see your point. Unfortunately you really have to be completely politically correct and pandering to the latest fad to be accepted by the vocal majority on here so you didn't stand a chance. On the upside there are still plenty of normal souls around who think the same but most will keep their heads down here to retain their sanity.
(Dons hard hat, starts digging bunker)

@Nikephorus.... because you haven't read the thread you're missing the fact that no one has gone on about being politically correct or conforming to fads. People have pointed out that the OP has a misunderstanding about what feminism actually is. It's nothing to do with being PC or following fads. What she objects to is not what feminism is.

”Unfortunately you really have to be completely politically correct and pandering to the latest fad to be accepted by the vocal majority on here”

The majority of “mumsnet feminists” (meaning the women who post in the feminism section for this) are considered to be very un PC and don’t “pander to the latest fad”...

Bertrandrussell you alone are the sole reason I am not a feminist. I've since changed my name (I actually left MN for a while because of this) but on a previous thread, similar to this one, I posted and you tore me to shreds. You made me feel like less of a woman for not simply agreeing with you. I was really upset and felt sick for days. You had the perfect opportunity to help me see what feminism means but instead you delighted in mocking me online and making me feel pathetic and stupid. If you represent feminism, and that's what it stands for, I want no part in it.

I always thought I was a feminist until I came on to MN now I know I’m not, and I’m perfectly happy with it.

Brave post hollowtree

I was really upset and felt sick for days

With all due respect you need to pull yourself together if something someone has posted on the internet has this effect on you. There are people will opposing opinions all over the net. What would happen if you went on Reddit or 4Chan?

And if you're genuine about eschewing feminism due to Bertrand then you need to hand back your right to education, work, vote etc and stay at home and knit. I strongly suspect this won't happen.

hollowtree - I don't know what went on with the previous post with Bertrandrussell and I don't question how it made you feel but to say now if "you represent feminism, and that's what it stands for, I want no part in it" is a bit dramatic.

So you reject equal opportunities for all, the rights of women in India for example to be paid the same as men, the rights of girls around the world an education, the right for rape within marriage to be made illegal everywhere etc just because of a poster on MN? That statement kind of weakens the rest of what you said.

People here are way bitchier than Reddit.

Part of the reason is that none of these things that happen to other women - mental load, bum pinching, chauvinist partner, discrimination, paygap - have ever happened to me. And if I'm supporting movements in the "horrible things that have never happened to me" category, I'd rather go for anti-war, or anti-globalisation, or anti-global warming.

So, Skaross, if you had to get a job (maybe you have one but hypothetically) and you were told you're getting £5 per hour but the man hired the same day as you is getting £10 per hour, you'd be happy with that? No, thought not.

And to be clear I support feminism, I just can't get that enthused about some of the things people come on here to moan about, like "my DH never cooks".

So you are not a feminist because of one person? You now believe that women are not equal to men?

Women used to be seen as inferior to men as the norm. Women were seen as weak, needing men to prop them up, defend them. Women were only good for two things. Is that really what you now believe because of one person?

Tut tut Bert - literally scaring women away from wanting equal rights single-handed because you’re sometimes... umm... I dunno, a tad blunt?

No of course not. I reject the "if you're not one of us you're stupid and ignorant" approach that so many take. I believe in equality, and if that's all feminism represents then I support it. But to be honest, i think ends there. I am a person who believes in the quality, apparently that does not necessarily make me a feminist because I don't agree with the personal attacks on people like the OP who are voicing opinions. Because my experience of feminists have been people who bully and attack others for not sharing the same views it has tarnished the way I see 'feminism'.

So, Skaross, if you had to get a job (maybe you have one but hypothetically) and you were told you're getting £5 per hour but the man hired the same day as you is getting £10 per hour, you'd be happy with that? No, thought not.

The smugness is fucking unbareable. I’ve actually campaigned for equal pay, thank you very much. I’ve spoken publicly about women’s issues. But I also support trans rights and don’t believe ‘the patriarchy’ is a stick to beat every man with.

I do wish people would stop claiming they're not feminists while taking advantage of all the gains of feminism, and subscribing to feminism's core definition of advocacy of women's rights on the basis of equality. You might read up on what feminism consists of so you don't talk twaddle.

If you genuinely don't believe in equal rights, if you don't believe that women shouldn't have rights - the right to work, to vote, to equal pay, to drive a car etc, then you could argue yourself to not be a feminist. Are there any such women here?