To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

[LouBlue1507]

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

"I teach science. I often have students disagreeing with the big band theory, evolution etc because of their religious upbringings. I don’t bring my personal view on that in to the classroom. I respect their upbringing and views but inform them that they need to understand these points so they are able to answer the questions in the exam."

I think that's a different situation. I teach those kids who don't 'believe' in evolution that what they were told is wrong, not because it is my personal view, but because it is fact. I had a question about transsexuality in biology recently. I gave the scientific facts, but was careful to separate them from any moral judgement.

It's sometimes a difficult line to address important controversial topics and actually talk to kids like a human being. Teachers don't always get it right. That said, it sounds like the teacher in this case was massively in the wrong- it is not acceptable to be making a kid uncomfortable.

I agree with everything you’ve said Fantastic.

donquixote I think it's possible to take the position of "that may be your personal belief, but the overwhelming scientific consensus, which we teach in this school, is that XYZ is the case". This tips the hat to the student's own belief, while not validating it to the rest of the class.

By all accounts this teacher was a bit of a dick, but I think it's fair enough with this issue to say that the individual can have whatever beliefs they like about themselves, but that it is wrong for that individual to force others to collude in that belief, and to validate them against their will.

“I teach those kids who don't 'believe' in evolution that what they were told is wrong, not because it is my personal view, but because it is fact.”

See I think you’re wrong to do that. I wouldn’t tell a child in my class that their religion is wrong. That is not my place. I’d teach them the information they needed to know to pass the exam (and fully explain the evidence for it) but they can make up their own mind about what they believe going forwards.

They have opinions straight from the stone age, esp that woman who infers that the 'homosexual lifestyle' is not good for children saying it is highly sexualized' ie. shag anything that moves - quite offensive. It is one thing to have such opinions in private but to air them on TV - she will never live it down

"donquixote I think it's possible to take the position of "that may be your personal belief, but the overwhelming scientific consensus, which we teach in this school, is that XYZ is the case". This tips the hat to the student's own belief, while not validating it to the rest of the class."

@ArcheryAnnie. In some cases I don't think that's the right thing to do. It's entirely reasonable to discuss the limits of evidence for the Big Bang theory but you have to accept that the evidence is very good. It's not OK to dispute the basic idea that Evolution occurs by Natural Selection any more than the idea that the Earth is round.

Facts are not subject to 'personal belief' nor are they just 'what we teach in this school'. Some things are real some are not. Training my kids to interrogate evidence and not be credulous fools is a key part of my job.

Also not to judge a book by its cover but he seems more of the.....'homosexual persuasion' maybe he is in The Nile

And as for the woman, God didn't do a very good job with her face creating her in his image - not a beautiful thing.

"See I think you’re wrong to do that. I wouldn’t tell a child in my class that their religion is wrong. That is not my place."

I would not tell kids 'their religion is wrong', but if you are a Science teacher it is absolutely your job to teach why the evidence for Natural Selection is overwhelming. It's pretty disheartening that there are people in the UK who ignore reality and our job is to train kids to be better than that.

I don't think any major religions are so weak as to be threatened by that, though clearly some individuals are.

Facts are not subject to 'personal belief' nor are they just 'what we teach in this school'.

donquixote I agree with this! I am not a teacher, but lots of DS's friends "don't believe in evolution", which I find ridiculous. I suppose I'd just struggle to find a way of telling them that these are the facts, pal, whether they like it or not, without them instantly dismissing it because their faith tells them something different. (DS just flat-out tells them they are wrong, and provides concrete examples of why this is so!)

“I would not tell kids 'their religion is wrong', but if you are a Science teacher it is absolutely your job to teach why the evidence for Natural Selection is overwhelming. It's pretty disheartening that there are people in the UK who ignore reality and our job is to train kids to be better than that.

I don't think any major religions are so weak as to be threatened by that, though clearly some individuals are.”

As I said previously I do teach the evidence for natural selection. I do believe the evidence for it is overwhelming, I am not religious myself and I would happily argue against anyone who didn’t believe in evolution etc outside of school. But I won’t do that in my classroom. I credit the children I teach with enough intelligence to make up their own minds. I present them with the facts and the evidence for those facts. What they do with that information is their choice.

We’re never going to agree on this point so I’ll just leave it there.

Schools should be a place where facts and evidence are valued over anything else.
Also I am an atheist who sees the church as very homophobic. But the teacher is right that in the Bible marriage is between a man and a woman. If he said that in Bible class, I don't see the issue.

The pupil has decided that he wants to present as male and so should be referred to as such. If he was called Robert for years, and then changed to Robbie and the teacher DELIBERATELY continued to call him Robert then it would be considered disrespectful, I can't see how this is different.

One of the issues that nobody has mentioned is that if the teacher uses the wrong pronoun and disrespects the pupil then it almost gives permission for the pupils peers to do the same. How are the staff able to discipline the children for bullying when a teacher is essentially doing the same thing?

I mean, I hold no brief for this teacher as I've got no time for religious fundamentalism, but he's not wrong when he says that you can't change sex.

There are many times as an employee, in every career (and in life), that you STFU. I am a teacher, and I may not agree with some of the beliefs of the students (as an extension of their parents) hold, but it is not my place to debate religious matters with them. If a student comes in and tells me that his mother is pregnant again and already has ten children to nine different fathers, the correct response is 'are you excited to be a big brother again?'. When I'm not allowed to say Happy Birthday to a student because their family don't celebrate birthdays, then I say nothing. Regardless of your beliefs, their are times in your life that you keep them to yourself. The workplace is absolutely one of those places.

@ArcheryAnnie "I suppose I'd just struggle to find a way of telling them that these are the facts, pal, whether they like it or not, without them instantly dismissing it because their faith tells them something different."

Some people never face reality, but kids often change as they grow up. It tend to think repeatedly nagging them with what's good and right and true often works in the end- even if it seems to have no effect when they are teenagers.

Perhaps it's just me getting old, but it seems like public discourse tolerates 'alternative facts' much more than 20 years ago, in the name of respecting everyones views. I think it's more respectful of people to assume they can deal with reality.

There is more to this story than the eye catching headlines.

I'm sure it is standard policy with repeated similar incidents (as the parents claim) that the staff member in question is suspended pending further investigation.

Taking this to the press (was on BBC local news as well as local press, Mail on Sunday and This Morning) has no advantage to the (Ofsted rated excellent) school or the pupil in question.

His motives are not that of a 'good' teacher.

Personally I think he knew exactly what he was saying ,I think he was trying to prove a point at the expense of a young child's feelings..he had no right to make that child feel bad,and he should keep his opinions on other people to himself.

But that is an opinion, not a fact.

I suppose I'd just struggle to find a way of telling them that these are the facts, pal, whether they like it or not, without them instantly dismissing it because their faith tells them something different.

I went to a very strict Catholic school for all of my schooling. We were quite capable of going to religion in session 1 and science in session 2 and no one was ever confused between the two. The science teachers were able to teach science and then go to a religious assembly in the afternoon. At one point we even had a nun teaching science. We were able to tell the difference between religion and science and no one's head exploded.

If a student comes in and tells me that his mother is pregnant again and already has ten children to nine different fathers, the correct response is 'are you excited to be a big brother again?

Agree. Whether or not I feel sorry for the boy is neither here nor there. Knowing when to STFU is as useful a skill in life as critical thinking imho.

The pupil has decided that he wants to present as male and so should be referred to as such. If he was called Robert for years, and then changed to Robbie and the teacher DELIBERATELY continued to call him Robert then it would be considered disrespectful, I can't see how this is different.

A name is a given thing it's not a biological fact. I'm human if I said I identity as a horse I doubt you'd put me in a stable and feed me hay.

It does sound like the teacher was bullying the child but to me that's a seperate issue