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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

523 replies

LouBlue1507 · 14/11/2017 09:25

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

OP posts:
Ilovelampandchair · 14/11/2017 09:49

Hotbuttered, so you think the teacher was right to educate the trans teen and all classmates on 'the facts' (as you see them).

SilverySurfer · 14/11/2017 09:50

hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea
Perhaps he refers to the child as she because she is a female human and that is the correct pronoun?

I know we're supposed to now pretend that boys are girls and vice versa, but are we now sacking people for not lying?

I absolutely agree with you.

HangingRock · 14/11/2017 09:50

PinkNews have added some further detail. The parents are saying they wouldn't have complained about one incident of misgendering but that the teacher was picking on their son.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/12/teacher-suspended-for-calling-trans-boy-girl/amp/

A teacher has been suspended after claims that he repeatedly misgendered a trans boy in his class.

Joshua Sutcliffe, 27, who teaches at a state school in Oxford, apologised for referring to a boy in his class as “girl”, but defended his reluctance to use male pronouns.

He admits that he said “well done girls” to the trans boy and his friend when he saw them working.

Sutcliffe says he apologised, but has also described an investigation into the incident as “political correctness gone mad” and accuses the school of having a “liberal Leftish agenda”.

He also admitted during an investigation that his private belief was that he was not wrong to refer to someone assigned female at birth using female pronouns, even if they have transitioned.

After the pupil’s parents lodged a formal complaint, Sutcliffe was suspended.
The complaint also alleges that Sutcliffe had misgendered the boy on several other occasions, and also accuses him of inappropriately raising religious issues in his maths lessons.

Sutcliffe apologised for the incident, but has also admitted that he does not like to use male pronouns to describe the boy because of his Christian faith.

The Mail reports that the main concern of the parents was that Sutcliffe was picking on their son, and that they would not have lodged a complaint over one incident of misgendering.

The parents also complained that Sutcliffe had given a disproportionate number of detentions to the boy for bad behaviour.

Sutcliffe has now been summoned to a formal disciplinary hearing in the coming week.

He says he is “distraught”, and that he had been reduced to tears over the incident.

The teacher also says the school’s actions are “political correctness gone mad”, despite admitting his reluctance to use male pronouns to describe the student.

The Mail report says Sutcliffe had “no official instructions about how to address the student”.

He claims he used the student’s first name, which is “consistend with the school’s code of conduct and equality policies to show respect and tolerance”, but also admits referring to the boy as “girl”.

Despite being asked by the school not to discuss the case with colleagues while the investigation was ongoing, Sutcliffe spoke to the Mail.

He said: “I was absolutely shocked to be told by the head that I was under investigation. I didn’t know what was happening. It was surreal, Kafkaesque.

“I said it was only one incident for which I had apologised, but he insisted the investigation would go ahead.

“I had always tried to respect the pupil and keep a professional attitude as well as my integrity, but it seemed to me that the school was trying to force me to adhere to its liberal, Leftish agenda.”

He added: “I have never been trained to deal with this sort of thing. I felt completely out of my depth and intimidated.”

But the teacher, also a pastor at an Evangelical church, also admits raising religious issues like the Reformation in his tutor class.
In the past, he also started a Bible club during lunchtimes at the same school, but he had been accused of homophobia after stating that the Bible defines marriage as being “between a man and a woman”.

The investigation had concluded that misgendering the boy demonstrates “avoidance of using gendered pronouns contravenes the school’s code of conduct with regard to demonstrating an awareness of sexual and cultural diversity of students and use of insensitive comments towards young people” as well as “the use of religious comments in maths lessons demonstrates a failure to comply with school policies.”

The investigation had also concluded that the complaint constituted misconduct, and that it should be dealt with through the disciplinary process.

Sutcliffe commented: “I have been shocked and saddened by the actions of the school, which, in my opinion, reflect an increasing trend of Christians being marginalised in the public square, and unpopular beliefs silenced.

“While the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts sharply with my Christian beliefs, I recognise my responsibility as a teacher and Christian to treat each of my pupils with respect.

“I have balanced these factors by using the pupil’s chosen name, and although I did not intentionally refer to the pupil as a ‘girl’, I do not believe it is unreasonable to call someone a girl if they were born a girl.”

Sutcliffe is also being defended by Andrea Williams, the chief executive of the anti-gay Christian Legal Centre.

Williams said: “This is one of a large number of cases we are encountering where teachers are finding themselves silenced or punished if they refuse to fall in line with the current transgender fad.”

He was also defended by former Tory Party chairman Lord Tebbit, who said: “It seems to me this is a mad world when someone is disciplined for stating a biological fact.”

A few months ago, Lord Tebbit insisted it was “perfectly sensible” to think gay acts are sinful.

The peer has also argued against LGBT equality because he was worried about a gay royal becoming Queen or King.

Lord Tebbit most recently claimed that air pollution was making people transgender.

HerOtherHalf · 14/11/2017 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

littlebird7 · 14/11/2017 09:55

Can see both sides, suspending him seems to be very very harsh.

ScipioAfricanus · 14/11/2017 09:55

It does sound like training is not the issue here. Some people cannot subsume their personal beliefs the for the sake of their jobs. I think that’s completely reasonable, but so too is it for the employer, if it affects he job, to dismiss the employee. In teaching, you have to try to remain as neutral as possible. It is difficult dealing with changing mores and frankly I found a questionnaire last year which went rebound asking us how much we addressed trans issues in our lessons rather odd and not pertinent (in most subjects, we address it as infrequently as we do pumpkins, euthanasia or interior design). However an honest mistake would not lead to this kind of action. Clearly the teacher has a strong belief structure which is fine but if he can’t separate this from his teaching all children equally then he is best off leaving the profession.

Pengggwn · 14/11/2017 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ScipioAfricanus · 14/11/2017 09:56

around

WineIsTheAnswer · 14/11/2017 10:01

He repeatedly refused to use the pronouns the child identifies as. Maybe if he had routinely used "He/Him" He would have been less likely to have a "slip of the tongue" in this case. He made a point not to due to his beliefs, completely ignoring the child's and schools views.

The parents have said this kind of behaviour from the teacher is on going and this is the straw that broke the camel's back. From his comments on This Morning and using "she" throughout the interview, I believe the parents. We only have his say so that this incident alone caused the investigation. Also commenting on the child's previous and current academic ability, especially when it's likely his peers know the identity of the child, on a national platform is unprofessional.

It doesn't seem to be a lack of training, the school has guidelines in place. He chose to ignore them.

I don't think his views and complete refusal to act in the best interests of the child have a place in School. He seems unwilling to accommodate Trans/gender fluid children within his class so unless he is willing to set aside his views in the classroom, I don't feel he should be in a position to teach.

Also it's really not hard to say "well done everyone" and would be the norm in a mixed school. He made a point of addressing them as girls.

Gilead · 14/11/2017 10:01

It's actually really difficult to remove a teacher from a classroom. The behaviour in question would have been persistent for this to have happened.
As for this:
I know we're supposed to now pretend that boys are girls and vice versa, but are we now sacking people for not lying?
Are you frightened of something? If a teenager chooses to be gender fluid why is that bothering you? Why is it bothering you that a teacher is not complying with school policy?
If all schools are expecting all teachers to pretend non facts are facts
We used to consider it a fact that we discovered America.
We considered it a fact that men were more clever and stronger than women.

PickleFish · 14/11/2017 10:03

Not really anyones call to make is it? There are facts, and then there are non facts. If all schools are expecting all teachers to pretend non facts are facts and firing them if they don't, we all have bigger problems than this.

But he doesn't have to pretend the non-facts are facts, really. I might well agree with the fact that the child is biologically a girl and that can't be changed, but it wouldn't stop me being able to use the preferred pronoun, or use whatever given name was chosen.

IncyWincyGrownUp · 14/11/2017 10:05

This has been no accident. He engineerednthis by the sound of it. I hope it bites him on the arse. The only real place religion has in a state school is within an RE (at a push history) lesson, and then as part of a balanced curriculum.

RandomDreams · 14/11/2017 10:05

He's a knob and based on his interview the suspension isn't unwarranted.

If he can't leave his beliefs at the door then he should not be teaching.

chocolateorangeowls · 14/11/2017 10:09

As a teacher we don’t bring our personal views and beliefs into the classroom. Children are highly influenced by the way we behave and as such everything we do needs to be considered and professional.

I teach science. I often have students disagreeing with the big band theory, evolution etc because of their religious upbringings. I don’t bring my personal view on that in to the classroom. I respect their upbringing and views but inform them that they need to understand these points so they are able to answer the questions in the exam.

Watching the This Morning interview you can clearly see this teacher has very strong views on certain things and that they have undoubtedly been involved in more than one incidence and a single slip of the tongue.

His attitude and personal opinion has clearly slipped into the classroom environment for the school to have taken this so seriously.

DeleteOrDecay · 14/11/2017 10:11

We considered it a fact that men were more clever and stronger than women.

Actually, men in general are physically stronger than women. It’s a biological fact but obviously there will be anomalies.

Upon further reading the teacher in this instance sounds like a bit of a twat. His interview on this morning with that woman doesn’t help matters.

inkydinky · 14/11/2017 10:12

I've actually done this. I teach adults. And one of the (previously all female group) became male at some point. He looked female facially, sounded female but took a male name. More than once I said something like "right ladies..." Blush

I think wilfully using the wrong preferred pronoun is a different matter.

NewStartAgainReallyThisTime · 14/11/2017 10:12

And yet there are people who refuse to shake my hand because I am female and their religion does not allow it. And people back him up to the hilt.

There are two issues. One is the school/ teacher issue.
The other is the double standards between religions.

(And, as an atheist, the awe that religion is held over common sense).

HerOtherHalf · 14/11/2017 10:13

the big band theory

That typo gave me the giggles. Do flat-earthers and creationists think the universe was created by Glenn Miller?

BelligerentGardenPixies · 14/11/2017 10:13

He was deliberately being a dick and I say that as someone who aligns with the radfem point of view regarding trans.

He's allowed to feel strongly that the female child is still female regardless of presentation and that the correct pronoun for a juvenile human female is she, however he doesn't have the right to make a student feel uncomfortable or persecuted in his classroom.

If he feels so strongly about this issue then he needs to bring that to his employers, his MP and align himself with political advocacy groups that support his perspective, NOTbring it to the door of a vulnerable adolescent. And that doesn't mean he has to lie, in the example given, there was no need to refer to the sex of the students whatsoever, he could have said "Well done people", "well done folks", "well done you lot" or simply "well done" in the general direction of the group he was referring to (they would have known who he meant). As a teacher he has a duty of care towards his students, first and foremost, and it is on him to find a way to provide that whilst maintaining his perspective. If the two are wholly incomparable, then he should have left.

ArcheryAnnie · 14/11/2017 10:14

I might believe X but if my school's policy is Y, my choices are to back them up or resign in protest.

Pengggwyn if a perfectly ordinary state school you were teaching at suddenly adopted the policy to teach kids that the earth was six thousand years old, would you think your only options were to resign or teach something that was so patently untrue?

I mean, I hold no brief for this teacher as I've got no time for religious fundamentalism, but he's not wrong when he says that you can't change sex.

outedmyselfagain · 14/11/2017 10:14

I went to a sixth form which had only just gone co-ed.

There were multiple occasions weekly where a teacher said “come on lads” or “well done boys” or “please move faster boys”.

Did I lodge a formal complaint? I might have occasionally said something like “shall I come too, sir?” But this all sounds like a storm in a teacup to me.

I do understand that non-binary or transgender people can get very upset by pronouns, but I’ve seen a family destroyed where a grandparent kept slipping up over their grandchild’s pronoun/name when the grandchild moved to a position of saying they were non-binary. The child’s parents got upset with the slip ups and went NC. The child has now moved back to using their birth gender/name/pronoun.

I have trans friends, and I have no issue with it, but especially in the early days there will be pronoun/name slipups and that’s par for the course.

Maybe there’s more to the story.

Rainuntilseptember15 · 14/11/2017 10:17

How often do you need to use a pronoun for a pupil? I call pupils by their names, is that wrong now? I don't tend to talk about another student when they are in the room that would be rude.

Fantasticmissfoxy · 14/11/2017 10:18

Absolutely more to it than meets the eye - sounds more like a deeply religious man imposing 'bible led' views in the classroom (marriage is only to be between a man and a woman for example) than just a one-off case of 'misgendering' - which incidentally isn't a fucking thing, the pupil was / is a girl and he said 'well done girls' . There is no way he should have been disciplined for this incident.

FWIW I think any person should dress however they like, as a 'man', as a 'woman' or as a sodding pot plant if it makes them happy. I do believe that there are a (small) number of people who suffer from dysphoria regarding either their biological sex or the gender they feel pressured to conform to. These people should receive help to address these feelings and work through them, whether that means 'presenting' as the sex opposite to your biological one or coming to terms with their body / sexuality.

That doesn't mean you get to decide you are a 'boy' if you are a biological female and then act like anyone 'identifying' you as a girl is committing some heinous crime against you. Any sane sensible person being mistaken for a man / woman when they are the opposite or 'misgendered' accidentally would brush it off. I have a very 'male' sounding name and have been referred to repeatedly as 'he' on email correspondence when someone hasn't met me / realised I'm female - it's not an insult for goodness sake, it's an error, and an understandable one at that.

chocolateorangeowls · 14/11/2017 10:19

Herotherhalf

Oops 🤦‍♀️

brasty · 14/11/2017 10:19

I have mixed feelings about this. It is wrong for a teacher to be unkind to a pupil. But if teachers can be sacked for stating biological facts, they can also be sacked for explaining evolution if the school is run by a creationist believing management.

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