To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

[LouBlue1507]

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

No wonder ppl are leaving the teaching profession in droves

People aren't leaving the teaching profession in droves because a few trans kids are asking to be called by their preferred pronouns.

sagamartha

but it is another facet of why "teachers are leaving in droves"

Seriously? Genuinely I have found no teacher unwilling to treat a trans student with respect and compassion, whatever their personal views on gender issues.

Genuinely I have found no teacher unwilling to treat a trans student with respect and compassion, whatever their personal views on gender issues.

But isn’t the point that it doesn’t really matter what your motives are? Disagreeing with the ideology will get you fired.

You could think that the parents had Munchhausen‘s by proxy, for instance. You could think that a boy was identifying as a girl for nefarious reasons. You could think it was a piss take.

Or you could, like me, think it’s incredibly dangerous to uphold an ideology that is determined to reinforce the gender stereotypes that women have been painstakingly trying to dismantle for hundreds of years.

There are several reasons to disagree with the ideology.

For me, it’s far less about what those reasons are, and far more about the fact that you simply can’t do it.

Disagreeing with the ideology does not get you fired. It's not the thought police. You think there aten't gender critical trachers working in schools with trans students? If you act on that in a way that goes against the expectations of the school in which you work, you might get suspended. Which is the case for many ideological positions.

If as a teacher you simply can't treat an individual child with respect, even when you disagree strongly with their circumstances, you should reconsider your job.

Disagreeing with the ideology does not get you fired. It's not the thought police.

Okay, saying it out loud. I’m sure, well I know, there are very many people in education who are uncomfortable with this issue, but are too scared to say anything. For precisely the reasons I have outlined above.

I’m sure, well I know, there are very many people in education who are uncomfortable with this issue, but are too scared to say anything

I am sure there are many issues to do with parents that teachers have their own personal views on - but don't say it out loud for for fear of repercussions.

they just come on MN and say it instead

There are several reasons to disagree with the ideology

I am sure there are many ideologys that teachers disagree with - but theu aren't supposed to bring such disagreements into their professional life - if it goes against the school policies.

Some teachers - especially those who have fundamental views of religion - may be opposed to feminism and seeing girls as equal in all things. However, they are not supposed to bring such views into their teaching life.

Same for racism, homophobia etc.

In the old days, schools and teachers had an issue with homosexuality and no doubt some teachers had views on it and saw it as an ideology and brought their personal views into the classroom.

So, if a trans student, whose relationship with their parents had broken down over it to the extent that they were no longer living at home and who had changed schools because of bullying, arrived in your class, you simply couldn't afford them the respect of referring to them in the way in which they requested? Your views on gender (which I in fact broadly share) would take precedence?

Ideological debates should not take place at the level of individual vulnerable children.

Ideological debates should not take place at the level of individual vulnerable children

This.

100% what the previous two posters said.

Also: puberty blockers are reversible and surgery is never, ever performed on anyone under 18.

sagamartha and TheFallenMadonna

I have major issues with what the teacher may have done, but I also have major issues with people's responses that he must have done more than this, or that he must be promoting an anti trans ideology, or that he must be bullying the child. When there is very little information or evidence to point to what he actually did do.

If we reduce this issue down to one specific case, the conversation is pointless.

If you are talking about conflicting ideologies and giving each of them the same weight (or lack of it), then again it’s pointless.

If you counter the damaging aspects of the trans-ideology with ‘But it’s mean’, again you’re looking at it on an individual basis and in a superficial way.

Is not an ideology that we can all just muse over, pissed, at 3 o’clock in the morning smoking Gauloises and pontificating over its philosophical meaning.

It’s having a real and damaging affect on our youth. And, because of the nature of the society in which we live, it’s particularly detrimental to girls.

This teacher didn’t really stand a chance unless he actively affirmed the child's preferred gender.

The guidelines, which have been endorsed by the CPS, are formulated by trans pressure groups and are comprehensively one-sided.

They link to the assertion that girls have a pink brain and boys have a blue brain. They also conflate sex with gender when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuality no longer being same-sex attracted, but same gender attracted, which means as long as a boy identifies as a girl, as far lesbians are concerned, he is unquestionably part of their dating pool.

Link to guidelines below. If you read the link and you still disagree with what I’m saying, then there isn’t much else to say.

www.transgendertrend.com/cps-schools-project-the-erasure-of-sex-and-the-silencing-of-girls/

puberty blockers are reversible

Lupron is the drug used. It is an anti cancer drug. It has numerous side-effects. It is used off label for trans-children.

There have been no long-term studies into its effect. Because the children who are using it now are essentially the guinea pigs who will form that long-term study. It’s wrong and responsible to say it’s reversible.

There are currently numerous lawsuits being lodged in the US against the manufacturers.

...and surgery is never, ever performed on anyone under 18.

Except for the son of the head of Mermaids, the biggest trans lobbying group we have, whose son was taken abroad to have the surgery at 16.

It’s like asking a current alcoholic to advise on alcoholism.

He says he referred to the student by name rather than using any pronouns. That would I think be really quite noticeable, and I think therefore unacceptable in the classroom unless that was how he referred to all students without using any pronouns. All the other alleged stuff I ignore. I can completely see how you can make a mistake with a recently transitioned student. I referred to a trans student once by the wrong name in a meeting, shortly after he changed his name. I corrected myself. I wasn't sacked.

When you are in the classroom dealing on a daily basis with a child, that is on the individual level. And this thread is about an individual case.

Do you have daily dealings with a trans child? Or is this all on a theoretical level for You?

TheFallen, that is a desperately sad back story and I would hope that any teacher would treat the child with the utmost compassion. However, if 2 friends that you have known as girls since they were 11, turn up in one your GCSE options with new names and wanting to be known by male pronouns, not so much.

This teacher didn’t really stand a chance unless he actively affirmed the child's preferred gender.

I think that is true. If the teacher had said, 'well done girls' to a group that included one an actual boy, do you think he would have gone home and complained to his parents and that they in turn would complain to the school and be taken seriously? Of course not!

I have never come across a child who has just woken up one morning and decided to change their pronouns. Have you?

TheFallenMadonna

I don’t have a trans-child, no. I am in touch with women who do, both on here and privately.

My compassion for them and sympathy for their situation does not stop me disagreeing the ideology. In fact if we could get rid of gender, we wouldn’t have gender dysphoria.

And although this thread is about an individual, the trans-ideology has gone way beyond people with gender dysphoria.

Instead of a man having gender dysphoria, they are a biological woman. Irrefutably, undeniably and if you disagree it’s a hate crime.

And, as I said, this is categorically not an issue that remains on a theoretical level.

The ‘affirmation at all costs’ resulting from the memorandum of understanding is going to have a devastating effect on young people everywhere.

Everyone who thinks this teacher is a twat and should face the consequences is only coming from a good place. I get it. I’m a very kind person!

But I see the way that this ideology has insidiously inserted itself into the national psyche, effectively by hijacking people with gender dysphoria.

It means that those are genuinely dysphoric have no recourse to any kind of treatment other than drugs or surgery.

It erases sexual orientation as a concept. It erases sex as a concept. It erases women and their hardfought for protections based on their sex.

If males no longer belong to the cohort called males, but can occupy the cohort called females. Then females no longer has a definition.

Of course males no longer has a definition either. But you don’t see men objecting to this. Because of the inherent power dynamic between men and women. It’s women who will suffer more.

The #metoo campaign which highlighted the sexual harassment and objectification of women, by men, becomes meaningless if you can’t define who you are talking about.

You are right that he was expected to change the way in which he referred to the student of course. Where we disagree is over whether that is a reasonable expectation of a teacher. I think it is, and, again, I will point out that I am gender critical myself. My dealings with individuals however, respect their choices.

Sagamartha if someone looks like a girl, long blond hair and a very feminine face and for sometime you have known them as a girls name it is easy to forget. I wouldn't think that there was any issues

I think people in general need to be a lot less precious about stuff that in the grand scheme of things don't matter

That sounds a bit like saying that people should ignore the minor ways someone treats them because there are bigger things to worry about

Exactly. I get treated appallingly most of the time I am out because of how I look. If I let it bother me I would be a nervous wreck. Sometimes you just have to ignore other people's reactions and opinions. You just have to be confident in who you are. That is all that matters.

Datun, so, in my example, as a kind person, would you refer to the student as "she", in front of her and the whole class?