To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

[LouBlue1507]

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

Perfect sense Italian.

Fifty children a week are showing up at gender clinics. The vast majority girls. Stephanie Davis Arai who runs the website for parents of trans-children has said she has yet to see a girl who wants to transition who is not either lesbian, autistic or has suffered past sexual trauma.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition.

And of course, no one, literally no one, wants to upset children who have it.

But insisting on pronouns, and agreeing that you can change sex is accommodating it, not addressing it.

This is a feminist issue and a parent issue.

Girls are being told they are not ‘girl’ enough. Because being a girl is a matter of pronouns, clothing and a pink brain. That their biological reality as females is not what determines their sex.

I totally understand the compassion involved in using someone’s personal pronoun (if they have gender dysphoria).

But it is a red herring at best and obscuring the underlying problems at worst. Very, very serious problems when girls are trying to escape being female.

Likewise for boys. Many transwomen will tell you how they were desperate to escape the toxic masculinity that society imposes on them. The lads together banter, the objectification of women, The expectation that you have to be the strong silent type who doesn’t give a shit. How they feel they can only express themselves, if they adopt the persona of a woman.

Going off alarming about how you must use the personal pronouns of people and suddenly allow men to go to women’s prisons, get changed with women and compete in female sport is a ridiculous solution to this problem.

rational discussion of what is happening, why it's happening and whether there are alternative approaches that will produce better outcomes

If only the teacher in question had done the above rather than choosing to protest by singling out a vulnerable child, then this thread wouldn't even exist!

Its not just religious views that should be left at the door, its political and ideological views as well

I completely agree; although the religious aspect is focused on here because of the teacher involved, the principle should indeed apply to all ideological beliefs, be that the trans agenda and the perceived need for activism or anything else

It should exist though.

A new phenomenon now is late onset gender dysphoria. Teen girls and young women are failing to meet society’s impossible expectations of what it means to be female. Bikini bodies, because I’m worth it, the selfie generation, etc. Beamed into their lives 24/7.

Particularly worrying for masculine girls.

They are developing gender dysphoria as a reaction against society’s rigourously imposed gender stereotypes.

And they are reacting to this internal disconnect by identifying as boys.

They’re not ‘woman’ enough as women, so they will be men.

And when people tell everyone they must use male pronouns, tell the girl that they are brave, and agree they are male, what they are doing is telling the girl she is right.

Where they significantly act to the detriment of others, yes. Personally, I will support anyone's right to peacefully follow their religious beliefs at an individual level. That is, after all, one of the fundamental freedoms of our supposedly free society. What I will not support, and speak out against as bluntly as I like, is those who use their religious beliefs as justification to victimise, persecute, bully or aggressively judge others

You could quite easily substitute religious beliefs in this paragraph for trans ideology and in particular the aggressive and bullying tactics used by transactivists.

Its funny that we are all supposed to respect trans beliefs and never ever question it for fear of causing offence but someone's religious beliefs apparently aren't worthy of respect.

In truth, if you don’t question the trans-ideology, you are failing children everywhere, and the next generation and the one after that.

This is Ada Wells. Erstwhile Head of the LGBT society at Edinburgh University.

Or schools could just adopt a policy of using gender-neutral language as much as possible? That would cut down on students playing pronoun bingo for shitz'n'giggles. For toilets, I believe some schools are already installing or refurbishing 'safe' toilets because even if there are no trans pupils, toilets have often been the place where serious bullying occurs (in all girls' schools as well). the recent CofE guidelines are a lot more about not rigidly enforcing gender roles than they are about dosing toddlers with hormones.
But there are people on both sides of the debate who are more interested in screaming and bullying than on dealing with different people's different problems on an issue-by-issue basis.

Or schools could just adopt a policy of using gender-neutral language as much as possible?

Although I agree that might solve the problem of students’ never-ending pronouns. It doesn’t address the underlying problem of why kids want to identify out of their sex.

Also, certainly in part of the adult trans community, gender neutrality is not the goal.

The suggestion, for instance, of a third bathroom option that is gender neutral, often gets shot down in flames.

Julie8008

So until society comes to understand how trans people should be treated then religious zealots should not be teaching vulnerable trans children.

Surely that should be true of all extremists?

Sounds like there is much more going on than 'simply being suspended for mistakenly using the wrong pronoun'.

But the Daily Mail presented it as him being suspended for that simple mistake in its headline - when deeper reading reveals far more going on.

So you've got the Daily Mail deliberately misrepresenting a story about a teacher being suspended and the same teacher being supported by fundamentalist Christians.

I think that says something.

Surely that should be true of all extremists?
If its supported by experts, is school policy and is legal, then yes.

Julie8008

Then I suppose that it comes down to people supporting the "right" type of extremist targeting vulnerable children.

BoneyBackJefferson
Haven't got a clue what extremist agenda your pushing.

Julie8008

I am pushing the very "extreme agenda" of not letting extremists of any sort teach vulnerable children.

Hopefully that isn't to hard to understand.

Whatever your stance, he was singling out and humiliating an already vulnerable child, that is incompatible with teaching.

You could quite easily substitute religious beliefs in this paragraph for trans ideology and in particular the aggressive and bullying tactics used by transactivists.

You'd need to convince me of that. My first test when deciding to take issue with someone's choices or actions is to consider what harm they are doing to me or anyone else. I don't see what meaningful harm someone with gender dysphoria is doing to anyone other than upsetting unreasonable people who think their rigid sensibilities deserve priority over everything else. It feels like I've seen this scenario played out before. Are transactivists any different from gay rights activists who fought back against those who wanted to persecute them for their sexual orientation? Black rights activists? Suffragettes and women's rights activists?
You cite their aggression. Guess what? Sometimes when people are faced with aggression they respond in kind.

HerOtherHalf I think trans activists are different. They have succeeded in shutting down debate in a way other activist have not. Google terf is a slur and see some of the vile stuff that is said to women and about women by people who think they are women. Bit of an eye opener, and not in a good way.

I'm open minded ItalianGreyHound and will have a look. That said, even if there is a branch of transactivisism engaging in methods that I might find repugnant, that has no bearing on the case that prompted this thread which boils down someone in a position of trust (allegedly) persecuting not just another human being, but a child. It also does not follow that if some transactivists are engaging in abhorrent methods that everyone with gender dysphoria is doing likewise or agrees with them.

You could quite easily substitute religious beliefs in this paragraph for trans ideology

You could but you would be wrong. I can walk up to a trans person, talk with them and find out more about their choices/reasons/experience etc. I cannot do this with a god.

Equally though I would expect a teacher bullying a pupil because of their religion to be suspended just as quickly.

Trouble is the goal posts keep changing and no one knows what to think /say anymore . Agree there is more to,this

Julie8008

You can ask a lot of questions. One of the ones that can’t be answered is the definition of the word woman. And why are transwomen think they are one.

Try it. I guarantee you will get no answer.

HerOtherHalf I completely agree with you.

Some people would call Mr open minded too. I'm a bit of a mix!

Julie8008 no one is talking about talking to God. They are talking about belief systems. If the teacher has been bullying the pupil then of course he should be suspended, disciplined etc.

I've said before I don't agree with the teacher. However, this feels like trial by media and that he is being found guilty but I'm not sure what exactly has gone on, despite reading about this in the media (if that makes sense).

me not Mr! Damned auto correct.

Perhaps because the pupil has a vagina, her teacher uses the correct pronoun.

Sorry, but this is precious.

HerOtherHalf

I agree wholeheartedly with you.