To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

[LouBlue1507]

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

What happens when three more girls come in identifying as boys, four boys come in identifying as girls, two boys are gender fluid and their pronouns change daily, and three are non-binary?

And they all want their own personal pronouns. Generic doesn’t do.

Datun then you use the personal pronouns they have requested.

It really isn't hard

robinR

It’s not only hard, it’s ludicrous.

You can have people changing their pronouns on a daily basis. See Philip/Pip Bunce.

30 kids in a class all changing their pronouns, or insisting on new ones as and when they come up.

Some kids really do not need a reason to mess with teachers.

At the University of Toronto, where there is controversy raging on this very issue, students are demanding that teachers put all their names in their phone and write the new pronouns next to those names (on a daily basis) and check their phone before they address them.

Meanwhile, women are singularly failing to identify out of their biology.

They are still getting raped and murdered in extraordinary numbers. Young women are still being subjected to harassment and objectification. Violent pornography is rife and at the touch of a button.

I’m totally against gender stereotyping. But changing pronouns does zero to change it.

It might not be hard, but it is ridiculous. People should not be coerced into having to pander to someone else's beliefs.

Absolute nonsense. I would refer to them all as "child" and have done with it. Teachers have a hard enough job without all this stupidity.

Why did we never hear of any suicidal kids years ago then

Maybe because you weren't looking. I assure you, they were there. Of the five trans friends I have that I'm relatively close to, who are all aged 35+, all experienced huge anxiety and unhappiness in their teens, two attempted suicide, one made multiple attempts.

That is, statistically, not abnormal for trans people. There's a Stonewall survey on homophobia and transphobia in schools you could look up.

I know a lot of people who are not trans who attempted suicide in their teens including two who succeeded. Teen years are very confusing. I don't think we should be enabling children to make massive life changing decisions about their bodies at such a time of hormonal flux.

Suicide rates go up after transition. Statistically about 10 years after.

Johns Hopkins University were the pioneers of sex change surgery.

They stopped doing it because it made no difference to the well-being of the individuals concerned.

They fully understand that transitioning can alleviate symptoms of gender dysphoria, but it does not stop the individuals feeling less distressed or isolated.

Because there are so many other comorbid issues.

Tell you what, when there is a case of a teacher getting suspended for accidentally mixing up the 11 trans students in his class who have changed their pronouns on a daily basis, lets have a thread about it. No point in getting hysterical now.

It's clear to me what actual stupidity is going on here.

Hysterical? That’s a nice gendered insult.

Hysterical - affected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotion.

Word used to describe your post as per the definition of the word. Nothing to do with your gender. I don't know if you are a man or a woman.

It’s not if there is a case, there is a case.

Professor Jordan Peterson.

In Canada, where misgendering is punishable by a fine of $250,000.

Where it has tied up thousands and thousands of dollars.

What for? Seriously what for?

These students are rich, middle-class kids.

wildly uncontrolled emotion.

Lol.

I see no wild uncontrolled emotion on here.

Just intelligent debate on an issue that is affecting more and more people.

If he can't leave his beliefs at the door then he should not be teaching

Does that apply to other religious beliefs too?

A very pertinent question ... and one reason I'm wondering whether this wholesale condemnation of an easy-to-attack Christian, for an "offence" about which most of us lack the full facts, is entirely a coincidence

It's encouraging to see many sharing my own view that personal religious beliefs should be left firmly out of education, but again I wonder if this is held to be so in every case

Does that apply to other religious beliefs too?

Where they significantly act to the detriment of others, yes. Personally, I will support anyone's right to peacefully follow their religious beliefs at an individual level. That is, after all, one of the fundamental freedoms of our supposedly free society. What I will not support, and speak out against as bluntly as I like, is those who use their religious beliefs as justification to victimise, persecute, bully or aggressively judge others. From the articles I've read on this case and a recent TV interview that is exactly what this teacher has been doing.

As an aside, where exactly in the bible does it state God or Jesus' position on gender dysphoria? I assume it must be in there otherwise this Christian teacher would have no reason to be conflicted. He couldn't possibly be making shit up to support his personal bigotries.

I found this about the Biblical stance on cross dressing which might apply:

Deuteronomy 22:5 deals with the issue cross-dressing / transvestism (men dressing in women’s clothing and vice versa). In this passage God commands that a woman is not to wear that which pertains to a man and a man is not to wear that which pertains to a woman, for all that do so are an “abomination.” The Hebrew word translated “abomination” means "a disgusting thing, abominable, in the ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages), in the ethical sense of wickedness." Therefore, this is not simply God addressing the fact that a woman might put on a man’s garment or vice versa. Also, this is not a command that a woman should not wear pants/slacks as some use this passage to teach. The meaning here is that this “cross-dressing” and transvestism is done in order to deceive, or to present oneself as something that he/she is not. In other words, this speaks to a woman changing her dress and appearance so as to appear to be a man and a man changing his dress and appearance so as to appear to be a woman. This is the definition of cross-dressing or a transvestism.

We can also reason that the dynamic behind this is the leaving of what is natural and taking on that which is in God’s Word called unnatural (Romans 1:24-27). Paul tells the Corinthian church that the way a woman wears her hair is a reflection of God’s order, and therefore a woman who cuts her hair to appear as a man or a man who wears his hair long to appear as a woman brings shame to them (1 Corinthians 11:3-15). The issue here is the motive and attitude of the heart that is evidenced in the choice to rebel against God’s standard for obedience.

These are principles we can use to reason an application. Whatever the prevailing custom, men and women should wear gender-appropriate clothing, dressing decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40). To apply the principles, the Bible calls cross-dressing or transvestitism a choice that is a demonstration of unbelief and rebellion against God and His order.

They stopped doing it because it made no difference to the well-being of the individuals concerned
Maybe that is because some in society, like this fundamentalist christian, still treat trans people as if they are abhorrent.

If he can't leave his beliefs at the door then he should not be teaching
Its not just religious views that should be left at the door, its political and ideological views as well. Teachers are there to teach children to think for themselves not brainwash them.

^Datun then you use the personal pronouns they have requested.

It really isn't hard^

Are you a teacher, robinR?

"If he can't leave his beliefs at the door then he should not be teaching
Its not just religious views that should be left at the door, its political and ideological views as well. Teachers are there to teach children to think for themselves not brainwash them"

In this case the trans agenda should not be pushed in schools. Children should present as their biological sex and be treated accordingly.

Schools push all sorts of agendas. Anti racism for example. Plenty of people have a racist ideology, sadly.

In this case the trans agenda should not be pushed in schools. Children should present as their biological sex and be treated accordingly

That is the debate society is having at the moment. Surely we should aim to become more enlightened and not just scream, "I can't cope with change, I refuse to change, change should be forceful resisted". So until society comes to understand how trans people should be treated then religious zealots should not be teaching vulnerable trans children.

I don't recognise your description of what is happening here. It is the TRAs who are screaming and demanding change without permitting rational discussion of what is happening, why it's happening and whether there are alternative approaches that will produce better outcomes. Screaming "transphobe" at anyone who suggests it might not be the best approach to lead children into a lifetime of serious medical intervention, infertility and loss of sexual function because they don't conform to the role society expects of them is hardly enlightened.

HerOtherHalf you'll not be surprised to know the word transgender doesn't appear in the Bible. However, as said above, wearing the clothes of the other sex is mentioned as not to be done in the old Testament. But there are loads of things in the Bible that many Christians do not take literally.

"He couldn't possibly be making shit up to support his personal bigotries." You may see it as bigotry but either way most religious people do have a reason for their beliefs, even if you, or I, may not agree with them. Just as people who believe themselves to be 'born in the wrong body' or whatever is said have a reason to believe this.

I feel very sad that the religious angle is really not very helpful here (I think that as a Christian).

For me the bigger picture is why so many young girls feel they identify as boys. I don't know for sure but for males identifying as female this is spread over a wide age range (I've heard of men in their 60s and 70s 'coming out' as trans - we all know one famous person!).

But for females it seems to happen a lot more around childhood, puberty and early adulthood. I could be wrong, I'm not trans or an expert but I have read a lot. I think we need more research to understand what is happening culturally. These things (in the media) begin debate but we also need research; and debate gets shut down or turns into a slanging match.

Some parents are utterly baffled and struggling, as are some children/teens; and it is not just trans teens threatening suicide or acting on it. Adolescent mental health is in a very bad state for some people.

I am not supporting the teacher, just wanting to debate this. But i am concerned of precis=dents being set. In Canada you can face a large fine for 'misgedering' someone. That reminds me of the blasphemy laws in some countries where people can be fined or perhaps persecuted for not agreeing.

I wonder if we can all agree we are all concerned for the lives of trans children. That is why I would support their choices as much as I felt able, and certainly use a word if it helped but I do also see that those who feel unable to do that are not necessarily just doing that because they don't care.

I hope that makes sense.

www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-cult-of-transgender/
Worth a read, in the midst of all this crazyness.....
Kids /teenager have had issues since time began, with teens it's their hormones all over the place, but of course now they'll naturally think they're the wrong gender.