Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for tangible benefits of Brexit?

459 replies

RiskIt4Biscuit · 10/11/2017 21:01

Some politicians are saying that we're all brexiteers now.

But I can't actually think of any tangible benefits of Brexit, and I think as a brexiteer, I should be able to list at least 3.

So how is Brexit going to make our lives better?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 16/11/2017 09:43

Ireland is an island, it's hardly going to be a hotbed of smuggling either people or goods - it's not like a land border on the continent. There really isn't any need for customs posts or passport checks. It has no effect on the EU's external land borders elsewhere.

I think we need one of our N Ireland residents to come on and tell us about the smuggling which went on across the border before the GFA.

Littlegreyauditor · 16/11/2017 10:12

Smuggling what? Petrol? Diesel? Cows? Racehorses? Show Jumpers?Cigarettes? Fireworks? DVDs? CDS? Cars?
You name it, it was smuggled back and forth across the border. I have heard of people setting up cross border postal drops now in advance of brexit so yeah, I think there just might be the merest suggestion of smuggling.
The border, you see, is really rather large. There are so many crossings, it’s impossible to police them all, and was even at the height of the troubles. There are people whose houses sit right on the border; front room in Fermanagh, bedrooms in Cavan.
My aunt in Armagh has a stream in her back garden which represents the land border. We used to jump back and forward between NI/ROI as kids.

You think smuggling won’t be a problem? God love your wit. Hmm

LaurieMarlow · 16/11/2017 10:26

We don't have to show passports when we go to the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, and they are not in the EU. The German island of Helgoland isn't in the EU.

There may be slight anomalies, but no major European country gets to be part of the Single Market and gets to set their own terms on freedom of movement. The examples you state are tiny little islands with populations in the thousands. It's in no way comparable.

And anyway, the UK's own position makes this untenable. They can't simultaneously 'take control of their borders' but not that border, as has already been debated extensively on this thread. The UK are asking the EU to do some ridiculous magic thinking for them. It's dishonest, as this Vincent Boland article states much better than I can.

The Brexiteers tell us at every opportunity that there must be “no hard border” in Ireland after Brexit. Yet the strategy they are maniacally pursuing, of a “cliff-edge”, or “hard”, or “no deal” Brexit, will create that very thing, with all the administrative, physical and political infrastructure that will be required to make it work. That is the political and legal reality of the UK’s decision to leave the EU single market and customs union, and not a plot by eurocrats to punish Britain. The argument by pro-Brexit advocates that if there is a hard border in Ireland after the UK leaves the EU, it will be the fault of Europe and not the UK, is dishonest.

Full article here, I suggest you read it to get a sense of the mood towards UK in Ireland. Not one soul thinks the EU is at fault here, trust me.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/boris-johnson-might-find-his-irish-cake-hard-to-digest-1.3291764

Why all the fuss about NI? Given the history and the efforts given to the peace process, just leave it alone. Ireland is an island, it's hardly going to be a hotbed of smuggling either people or goods - it's not like a land border on the continent. There really isn't any need for customs posts or passport checks. It has no effect on the EU's external land borders elsewhere.

Well, you clearly don't know much about Northern Ireland if you think smuggling isn't going to be an issue. It has always been rife. In answer to your question though, the main thing that makes it different is it's divided population. One side wants close ties with ROI, the other wants close ties with GB. Now that UK are leaving the EU, that juggling act is going to be much more difficult to maintain. For example, the nationalist side would accept an open border with ROI, with a hard sea border. No way in hell are the DUP going to sign up to that. So herein lies your problem.

All that said, I do think it's outrageous that the referendum was called knowing that a requirement of the Good Friday agreement was that both Ireland and the UK were in the EU. Has anyone looked into legal action to see if Brexit can be stopped because it's in breach of a treaty?

It's not about EU membership, but as I understand it, a requirement of the GF agreement is no return to a hard border. Which is exactly what the tories are charging right towards if they crash out without a deal. You can understand Irish concerns around this, I hope. Certainly Sinn Fein have made lots of noise about the potential breach and I'm sure some legal minds are on it, but I'm not sure where they've got to.

Which takes me back to my point that the very least the UK could have done is sat down with the ROI government, long before the referendum and discussed the border issue in the event of a leave vote.

Eve · 16/11/2017 10:40

I think we need one of our N Ireland residents to come on and tell us about the smuggling which went on across the border before the GFA.

Smuggling was a national pastime! everything was smuggled, from chickens to cars , to diesel, to groceries.

A lot of lorries had false bottoms in them to smuggle diesel/ petrol, cattle were regularly moved across the border, it was rife and mainly controlled by the paramilitaries on both sides with fatal recriminations for those who didn't follow those rules

I remember crossing the border at Newry when I was young, the long queues of lorries and the customs checks, the money changing offices.

www.irishborderlands.com/living/smuggling/index.html

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 14:21

These are the rules that underpin the EU's very structure and the whole project. They have always been clear that this is the deal. The leave campaign always knew this.

As I and others have pointed out, there are already exceptions to this.

LaurieMarlow · 16/11/2017 14:24

And I've and others have pointed out numerous times only around the edges and predominately small islands with populations in the thousands.

Show me the precident of a major. European country who has the kind of deal the UK claim they want.

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 14:41

Show me the precident of a major. European country who has the kind of deal the UK claim they want.

I don't know.

But that's not what the discussion was about. it's about how it's the "UK's responsibility" to sort the Irish border. That issue, having no border between customs and non-customs union countries, certainly has a major european exception: Switzerland.

LaurieMarlow · 16/11/2017 15:03

Switzerland is allowed to prioritise Swiss job seekers over others, that's all. It's not (despite its desires) allowed to put quotas on EU immigrants. And it pays a shit load of money to the EU for the privilege. So no, not a major exception.

Neither the EU nor the ROI seem in a mood to let the UK wriggle out of solving the problem of the Irish border, because in their eyes, it's their fucking responsibility. So let's see how it works out. I believe 'substantial progress' has to be made on Irish border issues before the next round of talks.

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 15:07

Switzerland is not in the customs union. There is no border between it and the UK. So, it can't be that one is a member of the customs union and the UK is not.

Perhaps someone would like to articulate why the EU insists on this border when it has clearly made exceptions.

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 15:07

*no border between Switzerland and the EU.

Julie8008 · 16/11/2017 15:09

Negotiating Brexit has increased the number of EU workers in the UK to an all-time high. Isn't that something remainers would consider a benefit?

KatharinaRosalie · 16/11/2017 16:02

Switzerland is in Schengen. This only means no systematic checks of travelling documents, in theory. There is still a customs border and customs restrictions (I cross Swiss/EU border at least twice per day)

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 16:36

This only means no systematic checks of travelling documents, in theory. There is still a customs border and customs restrictions (I cross Swiss/EU border at least twice per day)

Yes. So, for most people they cross seemlessly?

I can't remember, but I recall simply waltzing into Switzerland last time I was there.

CardinalSin · 16/11/2017 16:47

So now you're proposing that the UK joins Schengen!

LaurieMarlow · 16/11/2017 16:47

That's because they're in Schengen. Neither the UK nor ROI are.

KatharinaRosalie · 16/11/2017 16:56

Yes most people can simply walk across the border. Because Shengen. But you will need to declare and pay customs duties if you for example also want to bring more than a kilo of meat products or several bottles of wine.

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 17:13

That's because they're in Schengen. Neither the UK nor ROI are.

So, it should be easier for two nations outside of Schengen no? After all, because neither country is in Schengen no one can use entry into Ireland as cover for entry in to the EU.

What I hear is a lot of "the EU has rules/constraints", and they sound mostly like excuses. None of these come from God, and they seem to be demonstrably surmountable given all the existing exceptions. As I have pointed out, it isn't the UK or Ireland that wants a border. We can change them, but only one party doesn't want to.

LaurieMarlow · 16/11/2017 17:17

Erm, do you understand what Schengen is hanenero?

habenero20 · 16/11/2017 17:23

Yes.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 16/11/2017 18:36

As I have pointed out, it isn't the UK or Ireland that wants a border.

You will need a border if you want to control who is coming into UK/NI.

RiskIt4Biscuit · 16/11/2017 20:18

As I have pointed out, it isn't the UK or Ireland that wants a border.

Brexiteers said they wanted to control the borders.
But at the same time, they don't want a border.

If there isn't a border there, how will they control the border?

Why did Brexiteers want to control the borders in the first place? Whoever they want to keep out will just be able to go through the ROI/NI legally if there isn't a border.

OP posts:
Julie8008 · 16/11/2017 22:18

Whoever they want to keep out will just be able to go through the ROI/NI legally if there isn't a border
I think remainers are deliberately obtuse. Currently immigrants can come to the UK and get a job and we can't control that. If immigrants sneak in via the ROI they wont be legally allowed to get a job, health care, housing and we can deport them immediately if they are caught. Its called control, not 'build a wall'.

Peregrina · 16/11/2017 22:28

Currently immigrants can come to the UK and get a job and we can't control that.

We could but Govts. from Blair's onwards chose not to. As has already been pointed out.

Julie8008 · 16/11/2017 22:45

Governments chose not to and as a result the 17 million people have forced the government to do it. That's people power.

JumpingJellybeanz · 16/11/2017 22:50

It's not just control of people at borders, it's goods too, and that as I understand it is a far bigger problem. Unless there is a free trade agreement in place there has to customs checks or no customs checks at all for the UK. If we fall back on WTO terms then we have to trade with all countries on the same terms. So if stuff is imported from Ireland with no customs then stuff from everywhere else gets imported with no customs too.