To not take DD on holiday

[Strawberryshortcake40]

Have posted about DD before. She is unwell with an eating disorder, it has been over two years now. Life is pretty hellish.

A couple of months ago she seemed to be making progress, it was thought it would be good to give her something to aim for. So a holiday was booked for her, her younger sister and me.

Last month she started getting very manipulative about it all. Saying what her DS could do/not do on holiday, how she wasn't going to keep to our plans etc. Sure enough she had lost weight (her behaviour is a sign). I told her if she lost more weight she could not go. She rallied slightly. Her therapist said if she lost more weight she shouldn't go.

Well with a week to go, she's lost almost a kg in a week. So now WTF do I do? She really isn't well enough to go but is insistent I will "give in and take her".

Her little sister will be devastated not to go away and frankly she needs a break, she cries most evenings before bed at how life is here and it's soul destroying to see how her childhood is being wrecked by this.

But I feel v v sad at the thought of not taking DD who this was all for in the first place, but if I take her it will literally be a whole week of us being dictated to by her illness.

AIBU to not take her??

So shes back on track gaining and only had a one week slip up? It sounds like she's trying really hard to avoid getting back in its grip, especially with the text too her friend asking for extra help.

I think now the holiday is getting closer the reality of dealing with every day is just beginning to hit.

I really do think that your younger dd shouldn't miss out but you can't not take older dd just because off a one week blip/slip up.

Was it definitely just one week she lost weight?

If you are able to cancel DD1's ticket via insurance and get money back, please ringfence that money and explain that this will be saved for DD1. You can then put in place a programme of targets and 'rewards' that are more realistic and acheivable for DD1and spread the benefit over a longer period of time to encourage maintenance.

I think you have to separate the needs of your DDs as much as you can until DD1 is more stable.

You sound like an amazing mum who is having a really hard time. Personally I would leave dd1 with her dad and take your younger one on holiday. You both need the respite and your older daughter needs some consequence for breaking your agreement. If dd1 has a not so good week then that's life. Your younger daughter probably really needs some one on one time with you and I'd imagine that the holiday will be much more fun and relaxing without the older one there. Really hard decision but you should do what's best for yourself and dd2

OP - it is totally obvious from your posts that you are trying so hard to get to a place where you can go on this holiday, where DD2 will be safe and happy, and dd1 will be well and happy.

Unfortunately it is also totally obvious that dd1 will not be well, will wreck the holiday, wreck her sister's happiness (if not her physical well-being) and will control you, dd2, herself, everything.

You are stuffed either way, it seems. in which case,I would take the line of 'most benefit for most people' - ie, you and dd2 will benefit, dd1 won't. But then, dd1 will not benefit whether you go with her or without her.

Take dd2 on the holiday and try and relax and enjoy it. By that I mean really spend time with dd2 and try to forget about dd1 just temporarily. Dd1 no doubt thinks that she will get her own way and will try to make your trip miserable if you don’t allow her to go. Do not let her. Your dd2 needs you too. Please let her have this.

I know this sounds harsh, but there is absolutely nothing you can do for dd1 at the minute. She needs to want to make a change herself and I’m not sure that she does. I agree it’s an illness, but it’s one that she can only recover from with lots of effort on her part. I’m not sure that she wants to make that effort. And ill or not, her behaviour towards you and her sister is completely unacceptable. Think only of yourself and your other child, just for the holiday. Then come back fresh to start all over with dd1 again.

I think regardless of her w much weight she's gained or lost, her behaviour should be a factor too. She can't expect to call you a fucking whore and already be ruining things for her sister by saying shell stop her from going on certain rides, and still get taken on holiday as a matter of course.

Could she have half the time with her dad and half with your grandparents?

My sister had anorexia for 15 years, I think she will never fully recover but she is a much healthier weight.
She is trying to control you. You said you wouldn't take her if she lost weight and she has. Yes she may get worse as her form of upping the control but she may get worse anyway. I would go and show her you mean what you say.

After reading all your replies I'm not sure I would allow the therapists opinion to influence any decision you make. She sounds flaky on a big issue about your ex, making two very opposite suggestions in a short space of time. Is she really even taking on board properly what's been said?

In response to a pp it’s not just about the weight loss. It’s about her being back in the thrall of AN and the behaviour that is the manifestation of that in combination with the weight loss.

What that entails is a holiday, far from worrying solely about further weight loss will be dominated by issues such as the following:

• when you get up and go to bed

• when you go to the park and when you leave (even if it’s only 2 hours after arrival because she’s exhausted)

• if you go swimming or not

• if you even get to leave the hotel room that day

• where you eat, for every meal and that could mean the same restaurant for every mealtime for every day of the holiday, even if it’s the other side of the resort and takes an hour or more to get to

• when you eat, even if everyone else is hungry

• what rides you go on and what order even if it makes no sense logistically

If the desired outcome isn’t achieved and control isn’t exerted then the response is at best ruinous sulking but more likely verbal abuse as part of an embarrassing public meltdown and at worse physical abuse.

DD has already been exhibiting these controlling behaviours in the last few weeks in addition to her weight loss - verbally abusing her mother, trying to slice her fingers off, stopping caring about her hygiene and appearance etc etc

In reality if additional weight loss was the only ramification of taking her then you could probably still take her, but it won’t be, because she’s bringing the AN with her and everything that entails including manipulative, cruel, abusive and controlling behaviour.

That’s not a holiday for the OP or the younger DD - it’s a change of scenery where the “loss of opportunity” is even more visceral because it’s not “just” about not getting your favourite biscuits, it’s trapped in a hotel room looking at Disneyland and unable to experience it.

Caulk has replied from the position of really understanding .She has a very valid point.
You and your younger daughter clearly need a break.
You are being pulled in two and I feel for you,but if you don't both have some respite,how long will it before exhaustion creeps in and you no longer feel able to cope.
Don't let other people make you feel bad,you don't just want a holiday,you need it..
So go,don't spend the entire week worrying or fretting or trying to over compensate to your ill daughter.make the decision.when you come home you will both feel stronger and able to cope and hopefully your daughter will understand she cannot ignore what you say.if you do not go there will harbour regret and bitterness.
Good luck.

I haven’t rtft since posting but I still stand by my point as a teen with anorexia and happy to talk more of that would help.

I agree with everything you say Darth however DD1 wouldn't see this. The only condition that was put on her was to stay stable - which she has done except for that one week (assuming that is the case which hasn't been confirmed). To her, not taking her because of a one week blip would seem very harsh. I guess it depends very much on how many weeks she has managed to stick to the conditions of the holiday compared to the one week blip.

In retrospect I guess the op has realised that this was a bit of a biggie to pin everything on. It would have been better to have a structure of rewards for each baby step and/or built in behaviour conditions too. Where to go now? What a dilemma. I absolutely agree that it would be best if DD1 doesn't go on the holiday. I really hope that there haven't been many weeks that she did gain/maintain so that the one week slip up is a big factor. If she's fulfilled all the conditions for months, then she is going to take it badly that she's not allowed to go just because of one week. The fact that the op found her text asking her friend to help her shows that this holiday really is a big thing for her.

I don't actually think you can win op. Whichever option you choose to take please don't feel guilty either way. If you go without DD1 concentrate on giving DD2 the best time possible. If you do take DD1 then try to let some of her unreasonable demands go unmet without feeling guilty about it. Also promise DD2 that you will do something else another time and make sure that there is no option of DD1 spoiling it next time.

Op, no matter what you do, you will feel you have failed someone. Sometimes the choices we make come down to the lesser of the two evils.
Having read all the replies, I am sure you know that your lesser of two evils is to go on holiday only with DD2.
I actually think you will all gain something positive out of it. You and DD2 clearly need a break and quality time together. DD1 will - at some point - recognise that if you lay down conditions or boundaries and she crosses them, then there are consequences.

@DarthMaiden - she speaks a lot of sense and her posts have been enlightening, as well as other pp's who have personal experience.

The manipulation clearly has to stop. You need to draw the line in the sand with this holiday. You need to go, your DD2 needs to go. DD1 needs to stay behind.

I feel for you, like everyone on this thread, but I honestly dread how she will be if she 'wins' this particular battle.

Whine you’re right, DD1 won’t see this. She will perceive it as unfair.

She won’t (and hasn’t because she’s denying the weight loss - the doctors are wrong) associate all her other behaviours into the bigger picture because she is unwell .

It’s an absolutely shitty dilemma for the OP.

All I can see is a least worst case outcome here.

To stay with a father who can't deal with her for more than one meal usually, who is emotionally abusive to her

If your ex was considered emotionally abusive to your daughter, the therapists would not allow him to look after her. If 100% you do not wish her to stay with him, why can't she stay with either set of grandparents?

The other evening she called me a "fucking whore" because I suggested meatballs and spaghetti for dinner

No illness (except Tourette's) would make your daughter call you a "fucking whore". That's your daughter speaking. You may wish to continue to believe everything she does is directly caused by anorexia, but mental illness does not work that way.

I am getting the uncomfortable feeling OP that, 13 pages of posts in, you are unhappy that our replies are not giving you the outcome you want - which seems to be to go on holiday with both daughters. Most of us don't agree, but most importantly the therapists you have do not agree.

So really the most helpful thing right now to be doing is planning how to tell your daughter she is not going, and getting your other daughter excited at the prospect of having some of the attention she misses out on, and a week without her manipulative and stress-giving sister, and getting yourself excited at the break you so desperately need.

But instead, we're here.. and your posts seem to be almost twisting the reality of a rude, manipulative daughter who happens to have anorexia into some other narrative which excuses her and means you can go on holiday all together. Putting your other daughter through hell and not helping the situation at all.

You are in a difficult scenario, but, like anorexia, behind it there are still choices to be made.

Someone who behaves in a way that is rude and manipulative when they are under the control of anorexia is not necessarily a rude and manipulative person. You have to live it to understand that.

Flower I get the impression that the op doesn't want to take DD1 but is finding it hard to justify not taking her. The reality of what the holiday will be like is just sinking in, whereas before it was just an abstract concept to be used as motivation and reward.
But yes there should be boundaries as well that DD should know not to cross behaviour wise. Unfortunately this holiday wasn't focussed on those. It was just keeping the weight stable which is why the Op is feeling such guilt at now not wanting to take her because of the worsening behaviour.

I agree darth it is now least worst outcome.

rude and manipulative when they are under the control of anorexia

Are you a psychiatrist kaykay72? Have you examined the OP's daughter? How are you able to say whether her rudeness and manipulation is whilst in the grip of a mental illness, or not?

Individuals with mental illness are sent to either prison or detained in hospital every day for their actions. The destination and sentencing rests entirely on understanding and appraising whether actions are carried out whilst in the hold of the mental illness, or whether they were aware of their actions to such a degree that they could have stopped their criminal behaviour.

The OP's daughter calling her mother a "fucking whore" has nothing to do with anorexia.

I'm sorry but it is the anorexia that makes her behave in that way. I know the difference when her weights drops or lifts.

It's now looking very like I have to cancel and lose a lot of money. Having talked to her private therapist (yep she has two), he feels it would be catastrophic for her to be left behind. And she should not be left with her father.

I would actually like nothing more than to leave her behind, I need a holiday. I need time with my youngest. It doesn't look like that can happen.

No her grandparents won't look after her, one set has suggested we put her into care permanently. It would be my grandparents (in their 90s).

And this result means anorexia has won and everyone else has lost out.

Flower - interesting point about the Father.

OP you’ve said she is LC with him and he doesn’t “deal well” with her especially regarding mealtimes.

Can you elaborate on that?

I could be massively wide of the mark here but is that perhaps because he refuses to “accept” her behaviours such as being sworn at, physical abuse or buying M&S organic salmon because otherwise she’ll refuse to eat? Is she LC because she finds it harder to exert control with him? If so it might be a good thing for her to have a change of regime.

It’s telling you said you didn’t “even flinch” when she called you a fucking whore. You sound utterly drained by the relentless nature of the condition and understandably have reached a point where such behaviour is so commonplace it’s normalised.

This gives even more reason for you to take a break from it, step back and find the strength to reassert proper boundaries. Equally IF your Ex is more likely to assert those boundaries it’s a good thing for your DD even if she doesn’t appreciate it.

Obviously your comment about not dealing well with her could have many other explanations, but explaining those might help us understand your dilemma about leaving her with him better.

Is her BMI low enough to go inpatient? Even if just for the holiday week? She wouldn’t be able to go then on medical grounds

I'm so sorry strawberry . You must be absolutely gutted. I can see where the therapist was coming from. She would not understand and your relationship could be irrefutably damaged.

Surely if the therapist has recommended this there may be a chance of claiming on the insurance. Can you get your doctor to talk to the therapist for the insurance?

Also use medical reasons/the therapist to explain the cancellation to DD2 so that she doesn't blame DD1 personally.

I really hope that you can get your money back so that you can plan treats for both Dd's separately and then link in behaviour and weight baby step rewards.

It must be so hard for you

Have you spoken to her about how she would feel if she didn’t come? Does she want to come? If so can you make it easier by saying she doesn’t have to eat just so long as she has a liquid supplement like fortisip/ensure if she’s on them? Just so she can relax on holiday instead of forced into eating?