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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

452 replies

BahHumbygge · 09/11/2017 16:03

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

OP posts:
VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 15:50

It was because they charged the signage to "toilets with cubicles" and "toilets with urinals" (it may have been toilets with urinals and cubicles and urinals for the second one).

So the "with urinals" ones were obviously for men and women didn't use them, with cubicles were used by both men and women as there's not a similar obviousness. So the queues in the women's just got even longer than they were befo

VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 15:51

Sorry about excessive urinals in previous post Grin

VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 15:53

I've seen loads of screenshots where the 2 sets of toilets have had signage updated with the gents still saying men or similar and the ladies with a sign saying all genders or similar.

bambambini · 11/11/2017 16:08

I went to a family play/animal farm recently - been going for years. The main loos by the cafe are now unisex with a row of cubicles. Washing my hands i saw a seperate loo off to the side labelled “male”. So the guys can still have their own single sex area.

LurkingHusband · 11/11/2017 16:17

I wonder how all this excitement will affect the provision of facilities for the disabled ?

SmileEachDay · 11/11/2017 16:46

[[https://t.co/jYIVyLPPY1 ]]

This is worth watching..

Datun · 11/11/2017 17:06

It’s quite astonishing how people can understand two situations at the same time and not connect them.

Sexual assault and harassment of young girls is at epidermic proportions.

It’s increasing, statistically.

There are only two sections to this. The people who do it and the people who are (mostly) victims of it.

Pretending that you can think your way out of being one of those two sections is a lie.

But the worst lie is which side is doing the pretending.

woman11017 · 11/11/2017 17:06

SmileEachDay absolutely brilliant, thank you for posting. Made me laugh and cry.

Shocking stats on violence to girls in schools and public transport.

Who is forcing through these men's rights?

It looks like an organised attempted shut down of women's movement, when in fact, it's putting a real spring in our step. Smile

There will be litigation. This law looks applicable:

^Health and safety obligations for retailers
Retailers are expected to protect anyone who enters their premises from harm, by removing or controlling risks to employees, volunteers, contractors or members of the public^.
www.out-law.com/en/topics/regulatory/health--safety/health-and-safety-obligations-for-retailers/

LurkingHusband · 11/11/2017 17:11

Health and safety obligations for retailers

can be removed.

Datun · 11/11/2017 17:46

when in fact, it's putting a real spring in our step

All I need is the handcuffs and the railings, then I’m good to go.

Just tell me when.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 11/11/2017 17:48

Not sure if this has been posted
www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/877876/Stop-pandering-to-tiny-transgender-lobby

VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 17:50

LurkingHusband that's a great point about toilets accessible for disabled people. The campaigning has been going on for years and has been constant, change has been very slow.

Similarly for women there are still plenty of battles around toilets - the closure of many public toilets has an impact on certain groups of women and can restrict accessibility to things, and ongoing conversations about ratios - we are just expected to queue quietly for hours wherever we go, and the whole hardly being able to get in because the designers forgot about sanitary bins etc.

Infant changing / family toilets are another.

All these groups have been hammering all this for years and in seemingly a very short space of time the TAs are getting stuff changed to accommodate their preferences very easily.

There are reasons for this which I think tie into who is considered important, and who is not considered important in society. Whose voices are listened to, whose needs are met. And a difference in approach, the groups I mention above, ask, politely and don't expect to get anywhere fast. This new group demands, does not accept no, or later, or what about this compromise. There's reasons for that too.

Datun · 11/11/2017 17:50

The comments under the tweets are very encouraging.

People stripping this down to commonsense.

No to and fro about what constitutes the word woman, hormone washes, or why do you have to be so mean?

Just normal people, reacting with a common or garden wtf?

Scabbersley · 11/11/2017 17:59

Are you the person who decided to launch an attack on a poster's child because she disagreed with something you said? yes it is - the comment was deleted, thank you Mumsnet.

Datun · 11/11/2017 18:13

Scabbersley

It’s good that mumsnet saw it as a deletable comment.

On the other hand, sometimes I think these personal attacks should remain. Just so people can see what we are up against.

When posters reveal themselves, it’s very interesting. To lurkers.

These people never realise that their comments undermine their arguments, rather than support them.

TitaniasCloset · 11/11/2017 18:33

What was said then roughly without getting another comment deleted?

Datun · 11/11/2017 18:45

Comparing a girl who doesn’t want men in her changing rooms to someone who has no friends.

VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 18:55

A specific girl - a poster's daughter.

You don't start insulting people's kids because someone disagrees with you.

VerticalBlinds · 11/11/2017 19:01

I was thinking that the idea could be that it all goes to pot and then women restart opening businesses with women only although of course that would be illegal actually.

And more than that - men won't let us (NAMALT). The man who complained about the women only swimming session at the local pool and got it cancelled (reinstated after they had a look at the law and a lot of complaints). You can bet he didn't want a men only separate session, he just didn't like the existence of a women only one. This is a recurring theme, I think. Essentially certain men don't like for women to have the option to gather together where they can't keep an eye on them / without some kind of male overseer. I suppose it comes from insecurity. But it's a thing - MN is a place that a certain type of man really dislikes. It's a really interesting thing and some of this ties in with that.

SmileEachDay · 11/11/2017 19:02

The comment also specifically criticised the girl for speaking out.

Good, popular girls are clearly meant to be silent and acquiesce.

I agree, Datun, I think comments should stand, perhaps with the word “cunt” in the MN colours stamped across it.

Bucketsandspoons · 11/11/2017 19:22

Essentially certain men don't like for women to have the option to gather together where they can't keep an eye on them / without some kind of male overseer. I suppose it comes from insecurity. But it's a thing - MN is a place that a certain type of man really dislikes. It's a really interesting thing

It is. I was reading a book by a forensic psychiatrist who worked for the legal system, who had a great deal of experience of men who had attacked or murdered female partners. There were two things that struck me in what he was describing as common features in these men.

  1. the 'macho' identity meaning that a woman was property rather than fully human, and if she stepped out of line by disobeying him or the expectations he had it was the duty of a man to put her back in her place.

  2. That in the perception of these men, for a woman to appear to refuse his authority, refuse to give due deference or attempt to leave him (ignoring him) 'erased' him, and this was such a severe emotional injury that they violently retaliated to it.

Ring any bells? The word 'erased' is one that is used so often.

MrMeeseekscando · 11/11/2017 19:32

Where I work there is no ladies loo. I'm the only woman. The men have 2 separate toilet areas with cubicles and urinals.
I've been told to use the disabled loo which is right next to the eating area, the loo roll is always missing, as is the soap. I can hear conversations clearly outside and I can be heard in the loo itself.
I am extremely uncomfortable with the current situation and have requested a single sex provision be made for me. It's being resisted, but i believe currently the law is on my side.
If I finally get my space and then have to share it with men anyway I'll be fucking furious!
(I work in a very male environment. Low level misogyny and sexual comments are day to day stuff. I'm not about to rock the boat on that stuff as I need this job, but I also need the guys I work with not to be taking the piss out of rustling tampon packets and toilet noises when they are sitting 1 metre away from the toilet door)

MommaBear1 · 11/11/2017 20:07

**Have you really taught your daughter to feel afraid of being in a safe space with men?

Sorry, I dont know who asked that question but came across a response and want to add my own.

Firstly scared is probably not the right word in most circumstances. I think cautious, wary and suspicious are probably more apt

Secondly, are you f kidding me??!!The vast majority of us are programmed from a young age to be wary of our own behaviour, especially when it concerns men. From being told to sit with knees together rather than in a more 'boyish' ( and often more comfortable) legs splayed out, to being told we are now too old to sit on a male family member/friends knee ( often when we are too young to understand why it was ok last week yet not ok now), being told how wrong it is for a male to touch our bodies ( again before we understand why its wrong and why we are being told).We are taught to ask a policeman or a lady if we need help ( eg if we are lost). We are told what is appropriate to wear. We are told there is safety in numbers so keep with the group of friends when you are out. We are told not to get too drunk as we need to remain in control.

In instances of child abuse, the victim is threatened not only with their own safety, but often with threats against harm to loved ones. We have had years of rape victims having their sexual history dragged up, what they were wearing questioned and how much alcohol they had consumed as well as questioning why the rape victim put themselves at risk by being in a certain location.

We have had years of being told we need to be wary of men and our behaviour. Why? Because the threats are real and surprisingly common. The few women only spaces we have also give us the advantage of knowing if a male enters those places, they are usually ( but unfortunately not always) seen, questioned and asked to leave. It is the little power we have. A man who had followed me into the female only toilets and backed me into a corner was confronted by two women who had walked in only a few seconds after he had. He left when one started yelling for staff. I was useless and froze. Allowing men into such areas takes away our right to question their intentions unless they are obvious in their intention. Their mere presence will no longer be an alarm bell. Notice how we ( despite how young we are) are the ones taught to alter our behaviour?!

Do we teach daughters to be scared ( wary) of men in safe areas? Damn right we do...and our few "safe" areas are being snatched away from us as we speak.

Datun · 11/11/2017 20:25

*Allowing men into such areas takes away our right to question their intentions unless they are obvious in their intention.

Exactly.

And this is part of what pisses me off. A man can make a woman feel uncomfortable with a glance, a slight alteration his body language.

Women know full well what his bloody intention is. He doesn’t actually have to do anything. Our radar is going off like a fucking klaxon and he has creep written across forehead before he’s even open his mouth.

We don’t have to be ‘taught’ this. It imposes itself on us, before we are old enough to understand any of it.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 11/11/2017 20:33

TBH I think it's men (as a sex) who have taught women and girls to be afraid. And that doesn't seem to be stopping any time soon, it's like a bloody mission statement for some of them