Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

[BahHumbygge]

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

Sorry, but as the mother of a 13 year old daughter, I do not want some male pervert perving on my daughter. If by saying that means I am a bigot, then I guess I am. Enough of all this crap.

DD is only 5 so too young to be teaching about men and their behaviour(as a class...namalt and such), but damn right I will be teaching her to be wary around people she does not know who are invading her space. Not scared as such, just alert. I would feel I was failing to keep her safe otherwise, and if I told her 'oh yeah, men are perfectly fine, no need to worry' I would feel partly responsible if (or more like when) she was put in an uncomfotable situation. Yes, it can (and does) happen whether you are wary or not, but I do think parents of girls should let them know the reality of the world, rather than trying to shield them completely and making out everything is hunky dory. I also have a boy, who I will be teaching to be aware of other people.

I do not think this is raising a generation of scared paranoid kids. Just ones who are aware that there are a fairly large amount of disgusting pervy and violent people in the world. And that most of those, are men.

Yep! And can you imagine complaining about the way someone looked at you ( despite knowing full well what it meant)?! Years ago when I worked in a shop. I was kneeling down putting stock on a low shelf. Slightly inebriated male customer walks past, slows as he approaches me and winks as he says "while youre down there love.." as he pretends to unzip his trousers. My ( male boss's) response when I told him? smirking and shrugging shoulders "yeah but he didnt really do anything...and he was probably just joking ".... fast forward a few months later when Im closing up and boss's friend walks in to get some alcohol ( he and boss are spending the night upstairs drinking in boss's flat and friend has been sent down to the shop for more drinks). Boss's friend follows me into the tiny broomcupboard sized office and makes his intentions very clear. I pushed past him and ran to the flat. Told boss what his friend had done. Boss made all the right noises ( how disgusting and out of order etc) then finished off by saying " he works in *" ( a local food place)" you'll be able to get free food there for ages now" like wtf???!!! This was on top of other instances such as the 'looks', 'accidental' brushes past etc ( by customers, not employer)
Needless to say, I left that job

If instances like that can be laughed off as a joke or brushed under the carpet by making out I can somehow use it to my advantage, then how confident can I possibly feel in making a complaint if a man does something less obvious? I am in no way in the minority when it comes to complaints being dismissed... but we know, no matter how subtle, we know.... yet how can you complain a man winked or smiled at us in the changing room? It will be seen as us overreacting and misreading a customers mere friendly gesture....even though we sense and know the difference between sleeze and friendliness.

It's terrifying that the new legislation in the forthcoming Gender Recongnition Act will literally make complaining about a male-bodied person in a changing room a hate crime, as gender identity will be a protected characteristic and anyone will be able to self-certify without a doctor's tecommmendation or living in their chosen gender.

Inevitably, trans cultists now calling for Janice Turner to be sacked for her articles. It is relentless, totalitarian bullying. A constant stream of cultists demanding women be silenced, punched, sacked, beaten or killed.

__Ferntwist

In Topshops case they dont even need to declare anything - as unisex changing areas they can openly admit to being a heterosexual male and be allowed in despite there only being flimsy ill fitting curtains for 'privacy'.

Imagine walking into the changing area and seeing a bloke loitering outside a cubicle with his phone in his hand. This time last year you could complain and he would be kicked out of the shop (and probably banned or reported to police) no questions asked as he should not be there. Same day, same time,same scenario a year later and all he has to say is " I was making/ receiving private text/ surfing net" and there is not one thing anyone can do about it unless they want to be sued for even suggesting hes up to no good..

It's outrageous. We need to start organising the resistance.

I've written to the Times to say how brilliant I thought the Times article is & a couple of friends have done the same.

If you have two minutes please send an email, [email protected]

The trans activists are out for blood tonight on social media as the article was so good.

Did anyone hear Travis on Radio 4 tonight talking about the play he is in? No mention if the Topshop shenanigans, but as dh said, obviously appalling timing for all this to happen whilst trying to publicise his theatre appearances.

Ferntwist
I will do...will also have a look at social media and see what theyre saying to justify why their demands wishes should completely trump and disregard our rights.

Batshite

I completely agree with you regarding telling your kids the world is not a perfect place, although I must admit I would rather they become a little paranoid than raped/murdered or find footage of themselves is on the internet /being sold on the Dark web( something most of us didnt have to worry about when we were growing up). While trying to find data on how many peeping toms have been caught, I googled 'voyeurism in changing rooms' and got pages and pages of results...99% were pornsites ( no idea if those being filmed were actors or secretly filmed) ....

Well considering there is a thread running in Aibu at the moment about someone catching their dh secretly filming her coming out of the shower and the majority of the responses are that OP should be flattered I think we have a long way to go to acknowledging that this kind of behaviour is a) happening b) more than harmless fun.

hazey Yes, I heard that, too. Tuned in partway through and wondered who was this person who was being treated with evident adoration. Also heard the interviewer being very keen to explain that a 'cis-man' is someone 'who's comfortable with the sex they were assigned at birth'.

Sigh.

I sympathise with the general trans community. The confusion, despair, emotional turmoil, the high rates of suicide,abuse, bullying etc. Unfortunately the loudest voices among them seem to the worst representatives for them. The answer is NOT to hijack female only spaces we ourselves had to fight long and hard for. It certainly isnt by forcing companies /businesses to adopt a 'free for all' policy.

I watched an american interview about the bathroom bill where the interviewer asked the trans representative what point a man can declare himself a woman to access female toilets? Could he (the very masculine interviewer) turn up in the suit he was wearing, claim to be trans and demand access? The question was clarified and put in a variety of ways yet no distinct answer was ever given. The interviewer then stated that if the Trans community themselves couldnt draw a distinct line determining at what point of transition access to opposite sex places is acceptable, how the hell was anyone else to know? With no distinct line, the only possible solutions are either keeping segregation ( and therefore excluding pre op trans) or free for alls which puts us ( and trans) at risk.

I have defended trans rights in various ways over the years, now that same group is forcing me to stand against them to defend and stand up for my own groups rights. I had hoped to see solutions that ended the 'us' and 'them' but it no longer seems possible

I'll admit to not reading the full thread, so apologies if this was covered already (I got just over half way through the first thread, and the last couple of pages of this one).

The Topshop policy changed at least a month ago, the email linked previously is from October, the Travis tweet didn't change the policy. Also, it isn't a loss of the female space while maintaining the men's space, it's a move away from segregated changing rooms. Anyone can use any changing room, regardless of which part of the store it is in.

In practice, people will go to the one closest to the clothes they wish to try on, unless there is a huge queue, so for the most part the one in Topshop will still be mostly women trying on women's clothes, and the one in Topman will be mostly men trying on men's clothes.

Is there a risk of someone doing something shady? Of course, there always has been. Even staffed changing rooms will not be staffed some of the time, if someone is determined to do something illegal they will do that. Almost all the changing rooms I have been in have alarms/call bells in to alert staff if there is a problem like someone perving or being inappropriate and that is still a crime regardless of the person's gender identity or biological sex.

If you have a problem with gender neutral/unisex changing rooms, that's fine, but this isn't the fault of this one person, they were just failed by a store not following proper policy.

Oh also "yt" can also mean "youtube", still pretty shitty to dress as a 15 year old youtube girl, especially when that is supposed to be derogatory, but unless you KNOW they meant 'white' I'd suggest treading carefully before accusing them of 'racism'. Shitty people exist, and they are men, women, both, neither or anything else.

IMO, they were kinda rude on twitter, although I get that sometimes you can be rude when upset, but it's also possible they are a not nice individual. This doesn't make them a risk to society, or a problem in a mixed changing room.

@Datun

Can't be bothered to unpick your post to me but no one has suggested that this was a problem for women to solve.

It seems to me that this problem has been solved by Top Shop senior management (men) and a few women don't like the solution.

We still see you
(Credit: Datun)

Thanks loops for the explanation
I think you may have slightly missed the point here.

A few women don't like it? Thousands more like. Get men out of our changing rooms.

But they are only women aren't they. Why should our opinions be taken into account. To be honest statements like "only a few women have a problem" clarify the situation for me. It's saying very clear " shut up, your opinions mean nothing". It's always very useful to know exactly what people mean.

birds
Good point

loops Top shop will have more men with bad intentions heading their way because the men will be able to hang around the women's changing room as long as they like.

This happened to Target in America. Th
Target have had more violent and sexual attacks on girls/women in the few months since they have allowed all men into the women's spaces, than they have had in the previous decade put together.

Policies like this attract the perverts, Topshop will be a more dangerous place for girls/women because of the publicity surrounding this policy (whenever it was set up). There will be problems in the next few months at these shops, as a direct response to this known change in policy.

Not that my daughter's or my friends children will be there...they will be shopping elsewhere, it is safer for them.

I read a good point on the previous thread that I think is worth repeating for those who didn't see it - apologies I can't remember who said it.

This is actually about men. The transgender people want to be seen as women by straight men; they want straight men to find them attractive etc. As straight men aren't doing that, because they are attracted to women, what do the activists do? Push further and further at WOMEN.

I have realised that there is a sizeable proportion of the trans activist community that actively gets a kick out of invading women's spaces. It is part of autogynophelia - the sexual desire or love for themselves as a woman.
There is a whole rich seam of pornography devoted to peeing in women's toilets, being inside women's changing rooms and so on. These men want to trespass over women's boundaries at any cost and the liberal left in this country - take a bow Owen Jones you misogynist - is enabling their fantasy.
Thank god for the radical feminists who are calling this out. They are our only hope.