Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

[BahHumbygge]

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

@titania yes we have 😰🤢disgusting

When I was 15 my friends and I were discussing long hair and one girl said she flips it over the back of the seat on the bus so as not to flatten it. One day she could feel her hair lightly tugging and when she got off the bus realised the man behind had been masturbating into her hair. She would have been no more than 14-15 at the time. I can’t remember the rest of the conversation, it was a long time ago so I’m not sure what we said to her. I think she said she had jizz in her hair, I’m not sure, but she knew he had used her hair to masturbate with anyway.

She had waist length blond hair that she would plait at night after spending ages washing and brushing it so the next day it would fall down in rapunzel waves. Very pretty girl.

Gosh I haven’t thought about that in years. What’s the bet I have loads of these stories but just can’t remember them because we accept that this happens as women and girls?

Yes

A bloke at work was asking about the weinstein stuff the other day

I was saying, I'm lucky that I've never had anything at work, loads out of work though

And then I said, actually, i suppose there was that bloke who used to email me hardcore porn images at work

And the other guy who would "jingle his change in his pocket" while he talked to you and was then sacked for looking at porn at work

We say "that's never happened to me" and then all this stuff starts coming back!

Titania, your poor friend

We say "that's never happened to me" and then all this stuff starts coming back!

I think that's a really common way for women to react. It's our coping mechanism for this stuff being so common.

Her name was Sarah, I just remembered. I think I have so much stuff just buried. And she did have jizz on her hair, I now remember asking her what she did about it. I don’t even think we told an adult. gosh it’s shocking isn’t?

They will win. If gender neutral changing rooms (even the curtained type in the women’s department) are now GN/unisex then there’s no reason why public loos wont eventually go the same way as really not much difference. There might eventually be a backlash but it will take time.

I was on holiday with my family and the old man itting next to me in the audience watching the evening entertainment - started stroking my thighs (i was wearing shorts) and i just pulled away and moved over a bit as he started on my crotch. I was 14 maybe 15 and never dreamed of telling my parents. Then there are all the other times.

Bambini eeew! shudders that’s horrible.

i was very naive, skinny, underdeveloped and was taken by surprise in such a packed busy place where i felt i couldn't say anything- make a fuss.

You know the worst part - it felt nice and tingly and that made me feel really shameful- and one of the reasons I couldn’t tell.

We never told our parents about anything either.

I don't know if girls still feel that way, or if they tell more now.

I think we didn't tell because it was seen as something that we should be grown up enough to deal with by ourselves, plus an idea we should "laugh it off" and not take it seriously, not make a big deal or a fuss. Plus not actually knowing where the line was about what men were allowed to do and not in a not being sure where the line was type way. So it's not OK for a stranger to rape you, sure, but anything else.... and it was so common it didn't seem like it could possibly be a big deal otherwise it wouldn't happen all the time would it.

@Datun

No, my question didn't miss the point and it wasn't about cross-dressing or your feelings on it. It was about people who were born men being in women's 'safe spaces'.

Your reply (to the post but not to the question) said "when you have a perfectly good alternative". Does this mean when there's no alternative it doesn't worry you or that there should be alternative provisions made? Should shops which cater to mostly women also have a men's room and vice versa?

On another post you said, "There is a reason women want their own spaces. And until men get their act together, they can keep out of them."

Which men were they?

@Scabbersly

"I am glad it irritated you"

There's a word for people who spend their time online hoping to irritate others. It's hardly endearing and I suspect people often do it when there's no one left in real life for them to irritate.

@morningrunner

The only news I read or watch is the BBC and would never waste my time reading comments on articles.

@verticalblinds

I'd say the tone of the thread was summed up by "and no doubt pervy men hoping to get a view of a young boy getting changed" speaking about the men's changing area.

@DJBaggySmalls

"It suggests that fear of men is some kind of bizarre social contagion."

I agree. It was meant to suggest that. I guess I'm privileged in many ways. I certainly don't feel like a less privileged person because of my sex.

"It ignores the reality that if shops can provide a unisex changing room then the mens can become unisex"

Why? I wouldn't worry using it either personally or for my three sons but surely you've got a good reason for this besides something like 'if it's okay for women, it's okay for men'.

I don't imagine for a second that any man would care if a transman wanted to use the cubicle next to them. I suspect they'd be far more accepting as opposed to seeing it as an invasion of a 'male safe space'*

*the fact there are none is besides the point

If men don’t mind then why when the Barbican’s loos went gender neutral was it just the women’s affected? The men’s loo kept their urinal and carried on regardless.

Are you the person who decided to launch an attack on a poster's child because she disagreed with something you said?

Nothing further to comment on that at all?

I don't understand your response to me.

"@verticalblinds

I'd say the tone of the thread was summed up by "and no doubt pervy men hoping to get a view of a young boy getting changed" speaking about the men's changing area."

Someone suggested that men's changing rooms also had flimsy curtains and possibly pervy men who wanted to see young men undressed. I expect this happens. Do you think it doesn't? How is that the "whole tone of the thread"? You've lost me.

"I don't imagine for a second that any man would care if a transman wanted to use the cubicle next to them. I suspect they'd be far more accepting as opposed to seeing it as an invasion of a 'male safe space'*

You are wrong. Men are as protective of their spaces as women are of theirs. Most men dislike mixed sex hospital wards and prefer to have personal exams etc carried out by same sex. Many men would feel really uncomfortable disrobing in close vicinity to those they could see were female, especially teenage females. Many men are as private about their bodies as women, in this country. Some would feel that there was something inappropriate about it, especially older men. Why do you think men would all be cool with it? It's not true.

"I don't imagine for a second that any man would care if a transman wanted to use the cubicle next to them. I suspect they'd be far more accepting as opposed to seeing it as an invasion of a 'male safe space'*

*the fact there are none is besides the point"

What does this mean? No transmen? No male "safe spaces"? You are being unclear.

I think men have an expectation that if they are somewhere for men then there aren't going to be women there, I mean, obviously. When women use the gents toilets, men do not like it one little bit. For reasons I'd have thought were obvious, but maybe not

I still think young girls would be less likely to speak up than grown adults, especially the most vulnerable girls from difficult backgrounds. I totally understand that feeling of shame and confusion, it happened to me in a changing room aged 15. I was being perved on by the shop owners dad and he locked the door to the shop. It was scary but I felt conflicted and totally froze.

Now that girls boundaries are being stepped all over I think it will be even harder to speak up.

I told the people at my job and they made me feel worse, kept asking why I didn’t do something so I didn’t tell family members. Also when I was about 8 I had someone ring our home number and it turned into a dirty phone call. I told my sister and asked her not to tell our parents but she did and my dad went nuts, like he had gone nuts before when my sister and I and the girl next door were flashed at. I was frightened of my dads temper so felt to blame.

Gosh this is a crisis on a massive scale just waiting to happen isn’t it? No doubt ten years from now we will hear the stories.

I also agree that men want private spaces.

It's bollocks isn't it titiana.

I had a man who kept ringing and wanking at me - it was always the same bloke but only about once every couple of weeks so I'd forget and answer the phone and he'd be at it again.

I was a grown up so I did call the local police and they said what do you expect us to do. You could try your phone provider.

The police were also not interested in the man who wanked at me on the tube.

So actually my instincts from when I was young and didn't tell anyone were correct - there wasn't any point.

Just remembered by friend who had a man strike up conversation and then push her to the ground but she screamed and a dog barked and he ran off. I went with her to report they weren't interested. A few years later she saw in local paper he'd been convicted of a series of sex offences.

Whole thing is hopeless.

The fact is of course that when it's all open, generally, women will not want to access where the men are with dodgy intent. Female sex offenders are rare compared to male ones. She'd be more at risk than cause a risk.

Meanwhile will there be men who want to access the women's with dodgy intent well hmmmm let me think.

In reality, men will not be affected, apart from maybe losing some people like travis from their space, which they might well be quite happy about tbh.

Drum

Can’t be bothered to unpick your post to me.

But just to be clear

No men should be in women’s changing rooms.

If men want to buy dresses, great!

If they don’t have places to try them on, that’s nothing to do with women nor is it the problem of women to solve.

Oh gosh your post about your friend just reminded me of another incident!!!

My older teenage sister had a feeling someone was looking into her window at night, she kept hearing noises. She went into the garden the next day and one of the garden chairs was pushed up against her window.

One night she looked up and could see a mans face above the curtain pole looking into her room. My dad reported it to the police and the same guy had been doing this to a few women in the area, he was never caught.

My dad let her sleep in the living room for months after as she was scared, the thing is my bedroom was right next to hers and had blinds, much easier to see through but they left me there! I suppose because I was younger so seen as no risk.

Years ago I read a book by a brutish psychological profiler and was amazed that so many men who go onto kill women start off like this.

If men don’t mind then why when the Barbican’s loos went gender neutral was it just the women’s affected? The men’s loo kept their urinal and carried on regardless.

I'm willing to bet it's because men are more likely to react with violence to invasion of their spaces. Women are perceived to be less threatening and acquiescent so make their spaces gender neutral. At most they'll take the passive agressive route, i.e., not use them.