To alert you to the fact that Topshop just changed its policy to let men into the women's changing rooms

[YouStoleTheBowlFromTheRoom]

Been made aware of this today: a 'gender fluid' man having a pop at Topshop because he wasn't allowed to use the women's changing rooms at their Manchester store:

twitter.com/travisalabanza/status/927198660089339904

Topshop have now been quoted as apologising to him, and saying they've changed their policy to get rid of sex-segregated changing rooms altogether.

Another shop to strike off the list. Am I the only one worried this is past the point of no return?

datun you and I clearly do not agree on gender being separate to sex. Therefore we will never agree and this can go no further. Have a nice afternoon.

Yes those women did not know my sex and therefore went on to use my assumed gender to try and remove me.

No. They assumed your sex. And got it wrong.

This might be easier if you described your definition of gender.

sailorcherries

datun you and I clearly do not agree on gender being separate to sex. Therefore we will never agree and this can go no further. Have a nice afternoon.

Of course gender is separate sex!

That’s the whole point.

Have a nice afternoon, too. These discussions to get very heated!

I know sailor has gone but if sex segregation should happen sometimes (which I think we can all agree on) then there is no argument. There is such a thing as sex and sometimes sexes need segregation. Sailor seems to agree with that.

If the principle of sex segregation being necessary sometimes has been accepted then Travis needs to accept that sometimes his sex rules him out of certain spaces. Whether that includes topshop changing rooms whose primary users are teenage girls is another matter - most women would say it should I think. I absolutely think it should. But Travis seems to think the whole thing is nonsense because he is "gender fluid" which he conflates with being of whatever sex he pleases. That is the mistake. His sex is fixed.

FWIW I have never ever used a gender neutral changing room at a swimming pool - and I never would. So I don't know where all these gender neutral pools are in the UK if I've never been in one (and I swim a lot).

My local pool switched a few years ago to gender neutral changing rooms, I won't be going there again. Fucking ghastly.

Dictionary definition - the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

So long hair, dresses, painted nails, makeup, stay at home parent, nurse, midwife, teacher and so on are typically assumed to be the female gender.

Short hair, enjoys cars, plays in the mud, keeps the family and so on are typically assumed to be the male gender.

Therefore based on someones outward appearance, attitude and personification we decide on their gender. These women did not know my sex, they looked at these characteristics and assumed my gender - male.

Equally, gender fluid individuals do not feel like they conform to one accepted norm of gender and have periods of time where they relate to the other more strongly. All people are, to an extend, gender fluid but will always relate to one more strongly than the other.

Your gender identity is your own perception of the gender you are based on these characteristics; which does not need to relate to assigned sex at birth.

If I described my child he would probably appear, on the face of it, as female. Keen gymnast, enjoys watching Barbie/My Little Pony/Horesland/Mako Mermaids nonsense, prefers barbies to cars, enjoys doing hair, wants a LOL doll from Santa and is quite sensitive. That is based on social and cultural perceptions of gender.

The world has gone mad! Mad I tell you!

The man is a man, whether he wants to be or not. That’s just the way it is. Until his penis has been removed and an artificial vagina created and all the hormone therapy under the sun has been given he will continue be a man and will therefore need to get used to use the designated men’s changing facilities. After all that he will be a trans woman and will therefore be eligible (whether we agree or otherwise) to use the women’s changing facilities.

Bonkersness!!

Good, I'll be shopping at top shop more now

backing I think we agree. Sex cannot be changed and must be segregated by at points. In some instances we do not know sex, we assume or use the outwardly displayed gender to assume. If there are instances when it comes down to assumed gender then either have gender neutral or change the law to sex segregation and try to implement that.

Phoenix, just a few irate MNers? Tell that to the CEO of Target.

Why Eleanor? Because you get to play in the girl's room?

@stitchglitched

Never met the guy. I'll be sure to tell him if our paths do cross.

@Maisypops

Transwomen trans activist types are women when they want to play the victim from the scary men but men when they want all the privileges that having a penis affords them.

They want to be seen as women, but also want to be able to dictate how things go and keep women in their place.

In order to get maximum victim points they now invent terms like gender non binary and transfemme. What amuses me is that normal transmen/women just get on with life with some being all 'look at me'. I've never seen a nonbinary person who hasn't been dressed flamboyantly to shock or provoke discussion and yet they are perpetually offended by people staring when they wear unicorn leggings, orange crop tops and a fur coat out shopping.

This 100%. I don't think most people have a massive issue with anyone being trans; I mean who cares? It's not affecting me! But what does boil my piss is (as you said,) this sub culture of men who dress up very flamboyantly, and act very camp, and insist they are 'gender fluid' or 'non-binary' and want to be treated as such, and have all the priveleges of both sexes.

I know LOADS of people, who are always very pro gay who are sick of this now... Even my leftie niece who is a tofu eating Corbyn supporter, who is always down with the gays, rolls her eyes at men like this... As you say, genuine trans people will just eventually identify as the gender they are, and will dress accordingly and live peacefully as a woman now (or a man now.) But this 'sub culture' of OTT flamboyant men are a PITA now, and are making it hard for people who are gay/bi/trans - and are quiet about it - to live a normal life. And it does seem to be almost always young men too, never women. Not that I have seen anyway.

Similarly, I have noticed that once past the age of 40-ish, all people who come out as trans are men. I see loads of men - over 40 - now identifying as women and dressing as women and insisting on being treated as women. Yet I have yet to see a 40+ woman start wanting to be regarded as a man. What's THAT about?

I am actually surprised (but also pleased) at the amount of women on here who are sick of men like this travis person now. It's like, 'yeah you were treated badly in the past (as gays/bisexuals) and we are all sorry about that, but stop fucking milking it now.' You now have more rights than any hetero person!

Like many women on here, I am royally pissed off with men invading the few 'safe spaces' we have. Hell will freeze over before I get changed in front of a strange man in a changing room. I don't know a soul alive personally, who would be happy with it.

Top Shop are a disgrace and should be ashamed of themselves. I hope all women boycott them now.

Well considering their profits plummeted due to a boycott over this issue there are clearly many people who care about this beyond a few MNers.

Haidees we do, at times, rely on gender to segregate. Such as those women who assumed I was male. They couldn't determine my sex and therefore went for typical gender stereotypes.

Which reinforces my point. In some cases we cannot determine or segregate based on sex as a result. We then rely on gender stereotypes. In these situations we should make everything gender neutral/unisex and it solves this issue.

In other instances we can easily segregate based on sex and should continue to do so.

And never once did I say reinforcing such old fashioned stereotypes was positive, more that I understood.

It's also more than "oh wearing jeans doing diy I'm a man" followed by "glammed up for a night out, strong independent woman". It's deeper routed, in most cases, and longer lasting.

Again, not in Travis' case but in the case of many others I know.

Backingvocals both of my local pools have been updated to unisex changing villages. No one is allowed to remove their costume in a communal space. Toilets are still sex segregated. Cubicles and ahowers are lockable. There are seperate small rooms for the school classes to use.
I've never had any problems, though I would prefer it if the cubicles were floor to ceiling. As it is there are small gaps at the top and bottom. As far as I know there have been no 'incidents' in the few years they have been open, though there was a notice up banning mobile phone use in the changing village, so perhaps someone had been caught taking liberties.

I am solidly opposed to the transactivist movement in all its forms, but I honestly have no problem with this. I think that our attitude to gender segregation in certain environments is architecturally and socially impractical anyway.

Toilets and changing rooms should be gender-neutral, fully enclosed and with doors opening onto an open and safe common area, and not so inadequately secured (curtains, flimsy and mostly open partitions) that people inside the cubicles need the outside space to be further secured for their own privacy.

If the cubicles are inadequately private though, the common area needs to be gender segregated until the cubicles are brought up to standard.

My office has a corridor with a row of fully enclosed toilets - proper ROOMS - all gender neutral, and there no problem at all.

I am utterly TERF insofar as the transactivist movement is concerned - I think the movement is vile, abusive to children and adults alike, homophobic and misogynistic, but this issue is a completely reasonable one, and I have no problem with it being addressed and changed.

And by everything I mean in the context of clothing store changing rooms. It also removes the need for those who aren't trans or gender fluid/non binary to be lumped together with the likes of Travis.

Well I went into my local Topshop today and spoke to a department manager about this. She said she was not aware of any policy change, just that they tried to be sensitive with regards to trans people. I explained to her that if there was a policy change I would no longer shop there for my daughter.

I am more than happy for a trans person who presents as a woman using the womans changing room or for a man to help his partner / daughter in the disabled changing room, within the womans space. However I don't want all men to be allowed into the space.
I know my son would feel uncomfortable having woman in the mens changing area as well.
I would be happy with gender netural changing rooms if they were individual floor to ceiling rooms with proper lockable doors, but in my city, most chain stores just have flimsy curtains that barely meet the sides.

Tippz

What's THAT about?

Autogynephilia. Typical profile is middle-aged man, married, possibly several times, often in IT or a male dominated profession. His avatar/profile pic will be anime. Lately divorced. Not effeminate, but goes in for hypersexualised female clothing. Is vociferous about insisting on pronouns because it validates him and he gets off on it. Watches is a lot of hentai porn.

Goat - that's great but you can bet your life Topshop won't spend any money to redesign and re-build all of their changing rooms and they'll just remain little cubicles with ill-fitting curtains. All that will change is the policy.