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To alert you to the fact that Topshop just changed its policy to let men into the women's changing rooms

999 replies

YouStoleTheBowlFromTheRoom · 07/11/2017 18:16

Been made aware of this today: a 'gender fluid' man having a pop at Topshop because he wasn't allowed to use the women's changing rooms at their Manchester store:

twitter.com/travisalabanza/status/927198660089339904

Topshop have now been quoted as apologising to him, and saying they've changed their policy to get rid of sex-segregated changing rooms altogether.

Another shop to strike off the list. Am I the only one worried this is past the point of no return? Angry

OP posts:
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16
noeffingidea · 08/11/2017 15:19

I think I agree with astounded goat there. This also removes the motive for those 'trans' who want to use the women's room for 'validation'. There is no need if everyone is treated the same.
However don't just change the women's changing room into a unisex room without making any neccesary modifications, or even changing the name.

Datun · 08/11/2017 15:20

Sailor

we do, at times, rely on gender to segregate. Such as those women who assumed I was male. They couldn't determine my sex and therefore went for typical gender stereotypes.

Agreed.

Which reinforces my point. In some cases we cannot determine or segregate based on sex as a result.

Disagree.

One is not a logical conclusion of the other.

We need to dismantle gender stereotypes. So that those women would be assured that you were female, purely on the basis that the space was segregated by sex.

If they genuinely thought you were a man, then they have every right to question it. That may have been unpleasant for you, but is every woman’s right to question whether or not they think a man is in their space.

If we dismantled gender stereotypes and allow people to wear what they like, but the rule is they occupy the space determined by their biological sex, we won’t have a problem.

There will be people for whom their presentation is ambiguous. But that shouldn’t change the criteria.

Because women wanting privacy and dignity is not about wanting to exclude people based on what they look like, it’s about excluding people based on biologically proven behaviour.

Tippz · 08/11/2017 15:22

@Tippz

Similarly, I have noticed that once past the age of 40-ish, all people who come out as trans are men. I see loads of men - over 40 - now identifying as women and dressing as women and insisting on being treated as women. Yet I have yet to see a 40+ woman start wanting to be regarded as a man. What's THAT about?

@datun

Autogynephilia. Typical profile is middle-aged man, married, possibly several times, often in IT or a male dominated profession. His avatar/profile pic will be anime. Lately divorced. Not effeminate, but goes in for hypersexualised female clothing. Is vociferous about insisting on pronouns because it validates him and he gets off on it. Watches is a lot of hentai porn.

LOL! 😂😂😂 As I said, there does seem to be quite a lot of men like this (over 40,) and as you said, almost always separated, or divorced.

Some of them make a fuss, but many don't. But there are definitely more men than women. As I said I don't think I have seen a woman transition to a man past the age of 40 weirdly!

I have observed also (as I said before,) that the very OTT, annoying 'gender fluid,' 'non-binary' flamboyant, 'I must have my own way at all times!' brigade, are almost ALWAYS young men (under 35 y.o.)

Sentimentallentil · 08/11/2017 15:31

But it’s not about if unisex toilets changing rooms are better than sex segregated ones, it’s about being allowed to have sex segregated anything anything.
I actually couldn’t give a shit if the wet and wild toilets are unisex, but to be told that women are now not allowed to ask for a women’s only one is unacceptable.
This isn’t about not letting trans people into spaces it’s about having the right to sometimes say no this space at this time needs to be biological female only.

Datun · 08/11/2017 15:32

I have observed also (as I said before,) that the very OTT, annoying 'gender fluid,' 'non-binary' flamboyant, 'I must have my own way at all times!' brigade, are almost ALWAYS young men (under 35 y.o.)

Yeah, I didn’t used to be quite so worried about this type. Special snowflakes that no one takes seriously.

But the man in the OP is presenting in just such a way and invoking the trans-narrative to legitimise it.

Having an ‘identity’ of any description is a get out card for any antisocial or reprehensible behaviour.

And yet, it still only damages women.

Funny that.

JacquesHammer · 08/11/2017 15:35

Toilets and changing rooms should be gender-neutral, fully enclosed and with doors opening onto an open and safe common area, and not so inadequately secured (curtains, flimsy and mostly open partitions) that people inside the cubicles need the outside space to be further secured for their own privacy

Yes I would agree with this. I would have no issue with a gender neutral changing area/loo in a situation as you outline here. Last time I was in a TopShop they were still the "traditional" cubicles with flimsy, poor fitting curtains - one room for men, one room for women. I would not be happy to find a man in the female changing room in the latter scenario

Backingvocals · 08/11/2017 15:39

It also means losing the urinals. Women won't want to use those. So the toilets are genuinely gender neutral with proper cubicles floor to ceiling and sanpro bins in every cubicle.

But this will cost so what will actually happen is that the sign on the door will change. Men alone will continue to use their toilets with urinals and women and every Tom Dick and Harry (pun intended) who thinks they are a woman that day will use the women's. That's why it matters. It's women giving up space to men including some who are untrustworthy in our spaces.

RosaTheOwl · 08/11/2017 15:45

I can't assume anyone's gender because it isn't even a thing. It's just a social construct. i don't know or care what anyone's gender is.

I just want sex segregated spaces.

"My local pool switched a few years ago to gender neutral changing rooms, I won't be going there again. Fucking ghastly"

sorry, can't see who posted that and MN a mare to scroll through. How are these changing rooms set up? Is it all cubicles or just an open room for everyone?

Tippz · 08/11/2017 15:47

Agree @datun

And these men are doing the genuine trans/bi/gay people who just want a quiet life, no favours!

Haidees · 08/11/2017 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 08/11/2017 16:03

He has a book out and has just opened a play apparently. Is this all free advertising? #cynical

Bucketsandspoons · 08/11/2017 16:08

The argument about 'but it's silly to say someone who looks very feminine like Jazz Jennings shouldn't be in women's facilities',.

That situation has been fine for decades. Miranda Yardley has talked about this. People who are (as MY defines it) transsexual and have a GRC and have obviously spent their lives living as women have always just quietly used women's spaces for changing and toilets, and for the most part I've never seen anyone hesitate about it.

The situation has now changed.

We're now talking about the demand for that access to be extended to any man who at any time chooses to say the magic words 'I identify as'. This to include autogynephiles, cross dressers enjoying their fetish, 'genderfluid' people who want to change their minds as they feel like it, and people like Danielle Muscato, a fully male bodied, male dressed, beared guy with no dysphoria of any kind who insists that saying he's a woman entitles him to whatever part of the female estate he feels like appropriating. This is going to include people like the yobs who have assaulted women twice in the last few weeks in public places for representing (factual) views they didn't agree with, one of whom posted gleefully on twitter 'I wanna fuck up some terfs' before going to the meet, and this was 'loved' by the large Trans group Action for Trans Health who advised government on the coming gender bill and receive NHS funding. It's also going to inevitably include men who don't give a flying fuck about their gender but will love the huge extension of their rights and ability to commit varying degrees of sex crime.

The people who will suffer from these highly self indulgent, self involved, 'it's all about me' individuals such as Travis throwing tantrums and demanding access to wherever they want whenever they want it with the main thing being to break boundaries and get what they want and enjoy the kick that gives them, are the Miranda Yardleys and Jazz Jennings of this world. Because if women have to accept ANY guy with ANY motive who may well exploit his presence in an intimate space and can do this entirely at will then the only possible response will be to refuse to have any biological sex males in female sex areas. No matter what they look like.

Individuals like Travis have no more interest or conscience about this than they do about how women feel having their spaces invaded. In fact being empowered to do it against women's will makes the thrill even higher.

morningrunner · 08/11/2017 16:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

phoenixAgainAgainAgain · 08/11/2017 16:22

@morningrunner

How have you got the idea of "significant proportion" or majority?

TammySwansonTwo · 08/11/2017 16:25

Have people really forgotten the lengths that some men will go to in order to assault, spy on or otherwise intimidate women sexually? Simply saying "oh but I'm a woman" with no other effort required will be a damn sight easier than hiding cameras, creating new personas, conning, grooming online. If you don't even have to shave, wear women's clothes, change your name, live as a woman, do you really not think that this will be the easiest way to access vulnerable women in history?

It's not legitimate trans people I'm concerned about. It's those who will exploit these new rules deliberately and exclusively to access partially clothed / otherwise vulnerable girls and women.

colouringinagain · 08/11/2017 16:31

If you're on twitter please do tweet @topshop about this.

You can also message them through their Facebook page

RosaTheOwl · 08/11/2017 16:32

Tammy "Have people really forgotten the lengths that some men will go to in order to assault, spy on or otherwise intimidate women sexually? "

I was just thinking that. on the day that we find out that Harvey Weinstein practically employed an army to defend his right to touch up women, posters are acting like no man goes out of his way to harass women?

noeffingidea · 08/11/2017 16:33

Rosatheowl my pool has a unisex changing village. It's all very secure - individual locking cubicles and showers. I prefer it because the showers are in individual cubicles. I'm not into communal showers, even if they're all women's. Once my daughter and I were in the old communal showers (with our costumes on) and a man wandered in by mistake. I wouldn't have been happy if either of us had been naked.

RosaTheOwl · 08/11/2017 16:38

Thanks effing

I haven't heard the term "changing village" - sounds grim! - before so I just wondered. Are the cubicles properly floor to ceiling?

I have a gym less than 10 minutes walk away so I haven't seen the changing room as I just shower at home. but I'm fairly sure they are still male and female.

SoEmbarrassing · 08/11/2017 16:41

The thing is, it's great if facilities are set up to be safely unisex, but that's not universally the case and so any law changes need to reflect this if they're to be safe.

whatabreakthrough · 08/11/2017 16:43

Men, on the whole, have bigger builds than most women, (no matter how many hormones they take) so TopShop will have to start making bigger, clothes.
Then it will no longer appeal to the young and the fashion conscious, because it'll have lost it's edge.
Then they'll go bust.
Also, mothers won't want their young teenage daughters shopping in there because it may not be safe.

They are trying so hard to do the right thing, it will be the end of them.

Scabbersley · 08/11/2017 16:46

I'm surprised Travis can fit into anything in topshop..They's quite a burly build.

noeffingidea · 08/11/2017 16:49

Rosa no there is a little gap at the top and bottom. I don't know why. I would prefer it there wasn't, but swimming is very important to me, so I put up with it. I haven't heard of any specific criminal incidents.
When I'm trying clothes on in a shop I don't use them if they only have curtains.

noeffingidea · 08/11/2017 16:52

Oh, just to add, changing villages are designed to be family friendly rather than to cater for transgender individuals. People were complaining about not having family cubicles, baby changing facilities and difficulties of being a single parent with opposite sex children.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 08/11/2017 16:56

rosa

Our local pool has cubicles open at the top and bottom

There have been instances of people looking over the top...usually youngsters titting about but also of a man putting his head underneath to look at a naked woman

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