To alert you to the fact that Topshop just changed its policy to let men into the women's changing rooms

[YouStoleTheBowlFromTheRoom]

Been made aware of this today: a 'gender fluid' man having a pop at Topshop because he wasn't allowed to use the women's changing rooms at their Manchester store:

twitter.com/travisalabanza/status/927198660089339904

Topshop have now been quoted as apologising to him, and saying they've changed their policy to get rid of sex-segregated changing rooms altogether.

Another shop to strike off the list. Am I the only one worried this is past the point of no return?

So do you think they that the women who abused you thought you were a man? Or they thought you were weird because you were gender non conforming?

And they hurled this abuse the second they saw you - before they'd even had a chance to see your face.

Something doesn't add up here.

I don't think there's any question that Travis is male is there? Even if he says he isn't? Or do we live in a world where Travis is whatever he says he is if he has a big enough tantrum?

I don't know whether it's worth pointing this out again: the current, and increasingly dominant, line I'm seeing from prominent trans activists is that

1. sex is a social construct and
2. transwomen are not only women, but female.

With someone like Travis, I'd say it's fair to assume 'transfeminine' or 'femme' people will conveniently fall into this bracket too.

What concerns me, then, is that if we allow men like Travis into women-only changing rooms (which then become 'gender-neutral' - in reality, unisex - changing rooms) we have no coherent justification for excluding men from other spaces they're not currently allowed in.

Why? Because if Travis is 'female' / 'woman' enough to get into changing rooms, why not elsewhere? And if sex is a social construct, and transwomen are female, there's no reason not to let them into rape crisis centres, women's prisons, women's toilets, women's open-plan changing rooms.

To reiterate that point, there is little to no acceptance among trans activists that trans women are male. This is argued against vehemently. Any attempt to create unisex facilities in some cases, and single-sex facilities in others, won't work because these people are claiming to be female and want access to female-only facilities.

It’s going to be very interesting when the law is actually drafted.

Because even one exception, like, for instance, the exemption that currently exists, is demonstrable evidence that the people making the law disagree that you can change sex. Or that an inner feeling determines that sex.

It’s such a load of crap. No one believes it.

datun that is my point. You can segregate based on sex when you can definitely tell sex.
You cannot segregate based on gender alone. Gender neutral changing rooms, using cubicles allows for individual space and privacy, however at the minute we have no idea what is under their clothes and we are assuming based on their outwardly displayed gender.

So the legislation either changes to ensure these spaces are segregated on sex; which opens a can of worms. Or it is made so that sex segregation is available when the sexual characteristics are visible to the public.

You can be a supporter of both, regardless of how other's make it seem.

Honestly scabbersly I don't know. I wouldn't say I have ever been completely non-gender conforming but at that point O quite possibly looked like a male holding a dress, in the female changing rooms based purely on my clothes that day.

As for sources of gender identity and such -
Sexual Orientation and Gender Expression in Social Work Practice, edited by Deana F. Morrow and Lori Messinger
"Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Definitions - Human Rights Campaign"
V. M. Moghadam, Patriarchy and the politics of gender in modernising societies, in International Sociology
Carlson, Neil R.; Heth, C. Donald (2009), "Sensation", in Carlson, Neil R.; Heth, C. Donald, Psychology: the science of behaviour
George J. Bryjak and Michael P. Soraka, Sociology: Cultural Diversity in a Changing World (ed. Karen Hanson)

There are plenty more.

The bottom line is gender doesn't have to relate to assigned at birth.

Some places rely on gender to segregate as you cannot actually see their sex. Other places use sex when it is a viable option.

You are wrong sailor. The staff at topshop could tell Travis' sex. It's bloody obvious.

I still think I’m misunderstanding you

datun that is my point. You can segregate based on sex when you can definitely tell sex.

No. You can segregate based on sex anyway. You may not be able to enforce it, but you can make it a rule and people who disregard it are breaking the rule. Whether we realise it or not.

You cannot segregate based on gender alone. Gender neutral changing rooms, using cubicles allows for individual space and privacy, however at the minute we have no idea what is under their clothes and we are assuming based on their outwardly displayed gender.

I wonder whether or not you are taking these words literally. When people talk about gender neutral changing rooms, they’re mostly talking about unisex.

In some areas, gender neutral, might literally refer to someone’s gender. But as nobody except the individual themselves knows what their gender is, it’s just meaningless.

What if someone looked like Travis and identified as male?

Some places rely on gender to segregate as you cannot actually see their sex.

How do you, the shop, or anyone else identify someone’s gender in order to segregate them?

You have to assume, datuan. Work betide you if you get it wrong!

You have to assume, datuan

How? Literally, there is no earthly way.

Work betide you if you get it wrong!

And that is why, given it’s meaningless, it is used as a stick to beat people with.

What about women who identify as men? Are there any?? They don't seem half as vocal. And what changing room would they use?

In Travis' case his sex is obvious. In other instances it is not so obvious.

A gender neutral changing room is the same as a unisex changing room. Gender neutral - a changing room for all, regardless of gender.
A unisex changing room - one changing room for all regardless of sex.

Either way all people will fit in to these categories.

datun the point is that in many instances you cannot enforce sex segregation and in the instances you can (personal care, health checks, open plan changing) it ia because sex is apparent. Segregation in those cases is necessary.

When you cannot enforce sex segregation yoy segregate based on assumed gender, which couls be wrong, and tends to be in issues such as toilets, clothes, closed changing rooms. If you cannot tell their biological sex because they are clothed or in private then why try to segregate? Have gender neutral/unisex changing rooms and have then adequately monitored. Surely such facilities should be monitored anyway, which is again another issue.

Me doing a pee behind a locked door is no different to a man doing a pee next to me. As long as the appropriate measures are taken.

Removing gender specific changing rooms (because you cannot 100% tell sex unless you get in there with them) is not an issue.

Of course you can tell! This is another utter myth.

This is a recipe for sexual assaults.

scabbersly they can use the mens.

datun I'm assuming those women who judged me based on appearance and clothing. When we approach a changing room most people tend to look at their outward appearance including hair length, clothing, makeup and such. Typical gender stereotypes which can differ from biological sex.

Shit. There'll be queues of men now, queuing up to get a glimpse of our fannies.

From what I can tell, no one except a few irate MN'ers sees this as any kind of 'encroachment on what it means to be a woman'.

Jacques, I disagree with your post where you say men never have to share their spaces. Women enter men’s toilets and changing rooms, Girls join the Boy Scouts, women referee men’s sports. I accept that does pose a physical threat but it’s still an issue

On both those occasions the decision was made with a long consultation process, involving men in the decision making process. Do you see the difference?

As a female who has played rugby for a LONG time and had MANY male referees, they always get changed in MALE changing rooms.

However if you suddenly start having people who identify as female playing contact sport you have (a) the safety issue and (b) men in women's spaces. Again.

scabbersly I'm assuming those women noticed my five o'clock shadow, adams apple, lower voice and massive penis then? If sex is so obvious. No, they assumed my gender based on typical gender representations.

In Travis' case it is obvious. It isn't always. Which is why some mtf trans feel more comfortable in the womens area. It is why some ftm trans feel more comfortable in the mens area.

If we never had these areas we wouldn't force people to make a choice and then defend it based on their outward gender compared to sex organs.

Technically, she should use the males changing rooms.

When you cannot enforce sex segregation yoy segregate based on assumed gender,

Not sure why this is such a sticking point for you. Because no you don’t. Toilets are men and women. That is a biological description. Not a description of gender.

What you are saying is you may not know. That doesn’t alter the categories.

You may as well say the same thing about a rape refuge. That unless someone shows you their genitals, you can’t tell.

You don’t have to be able to tell to assert that it is sex specific.

The (minuscule) possibility that someone of one sex might show up looking exactly like the other, doesn’t alter the criteria you use to segregate.

We don’t segregate anything based on how someone feels in their head.

The fact they might be able to trick you, doesn’t change that.

datun I'm assuming those women who judged me based on appearance and clothing. When we approach a changing room most people tend to look at their outward appearance including hair length, clothing, makeup and such. Typical gender stereotypes which can differ from biological sex.

But those women were wrong! You know that, I know that. The fact they don’t know it doesn’t alter the fact they were wrong.

So when you do not know their sex in these facilities you are theb assuming their gender and segregating based on that.

sailorcherries

So when you do not know their sex in these facilities you are theb assuming their gender and segregating based on that.

I can’t assume someone’s gender!! I can only assume their sex. Based on secondary sex characteristics and behaviour.

The fact that there are people out there who will deliberately choose the facility of the opposite sex and try and get away with it by presenting as the opposite sex is part of this problem. Or deliberately choose the facilities of the opposite sex and claim a right to them, based on a feeling in their head and making no attempt to present as such.

What you are saying is because the system is breaking down we should just let it.

Yes those women did not know my sex and therefore went on to use my assumed gender to try and remove me. If everything were unisex/gender neutral (when it comes to these facilities) it removes all of that.

And if unisex/gender neutral changing rooms are such a hot bed for rapes, assaults and nale dominance why does it occur so regularly and why have you not complained prior? (The royal you).

From the off I've stated that a) all facilities that afford privacy, such as these type of changing rooms, should be unisex/gender neutral; whilst also maintaing that b) this means the removal of both and not just female; and also acknowledging that c) sex segregation should happen in other instances.