To ask WWYD in this school situation

[Junglejupiter]

I really need help (and maybe a reality check) so prepared to hear all opinions but please be kind because I'm upset about this as it is

DD has been having trouble with a girl at school since she started. I'm not going to bore you with a list of incidents but this girl has taken a dislike to my DD and won't allow her to join in play with any other girls that she see fit. I've spoken to the school about this and they have spoken to my DD about things she can do if she finds herself with no one to play with.

A couple of weeks ago, my DD came home very upset as this girl had spat at her. I went in to speak to the HT as normal teacher was away that day and it was very much brushed off as "that's not acceptable, we will keep an eye on it". My DD still comes home and says she's been playing on her own because this girl excludes her.

I've tried inviting friends round to tea to get my DD intergrating with another group but my DD is finding it really hard. She comes home and tells me that this girl is mean to her - tells her to "go away" "you can't play with us" "get off that you can't play on that" etc.

Today j had a voicemail from the HT saying that my DD has been involved in an incident where she has hit this girl, that she's missed her playtime and can I have a word with her because it's not acceptable to be doing that. I've tried ringing the HT back (10 mins later) to be told that she's unavailable to speak to me.

Now don't get me wrong - hitting is wrong and she will be punished at home accordingly but part of me wants to scream and shout that this is a reaction to all what's been going on with her since she started school with this girl. Days of her coming home upset. She's quite a shy girl and hitting is totally out of character for her.

Please give me advice - I'm in tears here, partly because I'm frustrated I've got to wait till 3.15pm to speak to a teacher and secondly because I'm so sad that this has happened

Yep that's exactly what they need to see. But they are going to struggle if they have before them two evidenced episodes of physical bullying and mother that is justifying the physical incidents on the basis of unevidenced verbal bullying. It's not wise to start quoting bullying policy when at this moment in time the only evidence is against actually against your own DD.

They absolutely don't need to know that it will happen again. That's the exact opposite that you need to be doing right now. You need to be making sure from your DD side it doesn't and ensuring she has a named invidual at school who she can go to and that she is comfortable with with she is feeling bullied. That has the added bonus of someone who will get to know your child and who is therefore more likely to intervene if there is a problem.

Or you could just pull her out. But often bullying follows a child, unless it's really bad, I'd rather kids learnt healthy ways of dealing with it.

rainbow it dates back to when the girls were at nursery. We used to speak outside whilst waiting for the girls. Nursery told me on several occasions that this girl had done things to my DD - on one occasion the girl kicked my DD in the face. I went in to have a chat with the nursery as my DD kept coming home with injuries and presumably the nursery spoke to the mother about that behaviour. Since then, she ignored me in the playground yet our DD's still stayed friends and my DD was a part of about 4 girls that did everything together (all moved up to reception together)

Did that information travel up with your DD? If it did I would be pointing it out.

Do you mean are the school aware of the problems at nursery? Not until my email that I compiled last night. I'm considering asking the nursery for a reference - do you think that will help?

I'm not sure actually if they were aware because the owner of the nursery is also a school governor - so I'm not sure if I'm honest.

Yes def get information from nursery.

Yes you must get in touch with the nursery and get them to either attend the meeting with the HT or write a summary of the incidents at nursery. Maybe the nursery manager will have a helpful attitude and could be an ally especially if also a sg.

Whilst all of this is happening build your lovely dd up. Tell her she is strong and capable. Spend as much quality time together as a family and talk, talk talk giving a positive empowering spin on all this.

e.g. "some people hurt other for a range of reasons, that's unkind but we will deal with this, we are a lovely family and you are a brilliant and competent child."

Also I agree with arranging playdates with some of the nice children boys and girls. This will give your dd confidence and if there is one thing a bully shies away from it's confidence.

Tell us more about the other girls dd moved up with, what are they like, do they still play with dd?

The other girls DD moved up with are quite unassuming, however my DD has said to me that one min they are all playing together and this girl will say "go away you can't play with us now" DD has told me that this girl snatches things from DD (for example if they are playing barbies she will take it off her and tell her to leave them alone) I've asked DD to just go and play with the other girls in the group but it's like this girl has a strange hold on her...... if she sees my DD playing with one of the others she goes over and is nice to her to make her come away from that friend. I've witnessed this myself at parties. For a 4 year old she's quite manipulative, and I think it's safe to say that my DD is easily led and also forgives and forgets far too easily

Mostly I think you need to sort out how your DD handles being upset. Whilst physical retaliation can sometimes sort a problem out, it always puts you in the wrong regardless of if you are actually right. Then you stand half a chance of sorting out the rest.

Yy to building up the other friendships. Also saying to other parents DD is having trouble settling at the moment could their DD look pit a bit for her. Only if they're happy to find course.

What do the parents of the other girls in this group think?

Maybe building up friendships with some girls not in the group.

School can help with this. I would be asking for opportunities for DD to work outside this friendship group as the friendship group is clearly becoming unsupportI've and toxic, enforced pair work work with someone you have never worked with before class layouts and dinner room layouts can all help with this. Before the meeting make sure you know who you DD is sat with in classr and in break.

I think it is also what happens at most transition periods. Takes a while to settle back down in the new environment.

I agree with arranging playdates with some of the nice children boys and girls

The Op says in her OP that she has done this, but her DD 'found it hard'
I think the OP needs to open her ears and her mind to that the problem might lie in her own DDs social skills.She might be doing something that other kids don't like.

This makes me so annoyed. I really feel for you op. I'm an ex teacher who now home educates my own children and this is one of the reasons I left the profession and didn't want my own children going into schools. Teachers are just so overwhelmed with paper work and targets and shit that shouldn't matter, that things like bullying are going on under their noses and then being brushed under the carpet. I've heard things from teachers like 'it builds resilience'. In my experience it does not at all, in fact the opposite.
I'm not anti school per se but if you happen to be a have a child who's bullied then in most state schools you're in for a really difficult, exhausting and emotional fight. Schools have a duty to keep children safe from harm and they're failing. I've seen them fail time and time again. And I don't think badly of the teachers at all. It's a job that sucks every ounce of your time and energy. It's so difficult to be there, in the classroom, getting to know what's going on with your pupils, when there's so much other shit to do. It's soul destroying.
There are a surprisingly large number of teachers home educating.
Good luck op. And in the meantime I would start researching home education if it's something you feel would benefit your daughter, even if it's for the short term until her confidence is rebuilt and she's a little older and able to deal with these situations. Home education isn't the cliche that people think it is, it's a very valid and successful way to educate children.

I think maybe that's the same group of four girls?

Firecracker my DD cannot understand why this girl wants her one min and then is nasty to her the next. My DD is a people pleaser - even if the girl punched her in the face she would still be friends with her because that's (frustratingly) how she is. When my DD does try to play with others, as I've said this girl comes over and tempts her away. Her confidence has been knocked, being told Day in day out to go away, leave us alone - I know what my confidence would be like if my work colleagues spoke to me like this

I have to agree with BlackandWhite that teachers can be very dismissive or uninterested in bullying. As a TA, I’ve been quite disappointed with teachers on several occasions and it’s very frustrating that they get the last word. It’s often only when a parent kicks up a fuss when things get done. When the Op complained initially, you’d think the teacher would have been monitoring the situation more closely yet they seem to be denying anything is going on. Also the HT calling home when a child hits someone for the first time is really weird. At most, the teacher might mention it at the end of the day.
Be prepared for a difficult meeting tomorrow. I think you should have your dh with you and have some notes prepared. Show willing to cooperate with the school but stand firm that this is bullying by exclusion and you won’t accept it continuing as your dd is miserable (bring up that she wet herself). If there’s anything wrong with your dd’s behaviour or social skills, the school should share it with you. Point out that this has been going on since nursery and you can’t accept that the school is portraying it as your dd’s fault when the nursery said it was the other girl. I think you should say you don’t feel your dd is safe at school - not physically as such but emotionally and psychologically. Good luck

Tell her that if someone hurts you the same way over and over again chances are they will do it again in the future. We don't always know why it's just what they do

Therefore even if she is nice to her sometimes chances are she will also not be nice to her again because that's what she always does. She may be have good reason for doing what she's doing but that doesn't stop it hurting you.

You can't change them. You can only change what you do

I'd then go on to say how could you do things differently. If she comes and takes you away from playing with someone else what could you say? (She might come up with something or you then suggest) you could say "no thank you I'm playing here" or if she interrupts you talking to name "" excuse me we were talking weren't we name, you can join in but we hadnt finished yet ." Do you want to practice? Pretend I'm .... (make it as exaggerated and ridiculous as possible). You might not be able to do it every time but it's good to try. If your really upset what do you need to do (tell a teacher).

f she manages an incident successfully and politely herself, she will feel so much better about herself

Have you spoken about this with family and friends? What does your dh say, is he also looking out for your dd? Do you have more children if yes, how does your dd get on with them?

In your shoes I would pursue several things right now. I'd be looking around for other school with available spaces in reception and visit the schools as soon as possible. This is only a backup don't feel this hideous head teacher and bully family will chase you 'out of town'.
At the end of the day one cannot always run away from problems and what if there are crappy people at the new school. Saying this I would definitely look into visiting schools around you.

As others have said, wrote it all down in a formal email including governors as well as nursery history. Work on your dd's confidence. At her age this should be fairly easy. She is still looking to you for guidance and will believe you if you build her up. Is there any chance at all that you could volunteer at the school? Doe they have a PTA or parent volunteers in the classroom? This way you can keep an eye on things.

One more question, how confident are you OP? Sometimes children copy our behaviour and if you feel developing more assertiveness would be good for you, you could do this at the same time as teaching your dd skills.

Read the whole thread and I’m in tears for your dd. I really feel for her and you. Wish I had advice. Stand your ground firmly. xx

I think that because your DD is so eager to please, she’s an easy target for this girl because she can manipulate her. And even if you move her to a different school there will be another girl able to do that to her.

It is of course possible that she lacks social skills, Firecracker, my DD1 does and that’s why she finds making friends hard. But I suspect it’s more that this girl enjoys playing her, it’s clearly not just that she finds her irritating.

Good luck with your meeting tomorrow OP. But I can't help thinking that the best thing would be to change schools if you can.

Bullying by exclusion is particularly difficult to deal with.It is not o simple as ordering the kids to play with the victim, because then the kids resent her and she becomes even more alienated.The omly thing I think is to try and get the school on board with engineering other friendships.

"The issues are connected because my DD would not have hit the girl if she hadn't suffered weeks of verbal abuse and the occasion physical abuse"

But the other mother might not know about that-all she knows is that your daughter hit hers & of course her daughter might have told her that she was only talking to someone else in the lunch queue-how come no one noticed her pushing in?

She does need to not be taken in by this girl when she is being nice-very difficult if she wants to be friends with the others in the group & them also being only 4, they probably can't take sides/stand up to the other girl either.

I feel so sorry for you and your dd about this. My daughter went through the same in the last year of pre-school. My dd is shy and there was a girl doing the same to her as this girl is to your dd. In m dd's school they have an older buddy girl system for the playground where a nominated older child looks out for some younger children and the younger children can go to their buddy if they need comfort or some help. This buddy could be a handy pair of eyes and ears in the playground. You need to find out what happened leading up to your daughter hitting this child - it sounds like she finally had enough but at the end of the day this child has been a bully and your daughter has been suffering emotionally. Ask the HT what their bullying is and what they are doing to enforce it - if nothing is being done, contact the governors if still nothing is done - tell the HT you will speak to Ofsted - all schools need to have an effective bullying policy not just pay lip service to it.