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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To point out that Martin Clunes is a twat of the first order?

199 replies

Battleax · 27/10/2017 06:39

www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/4776183/martin-clunes-actress-flirting-accusation/

OP posts:
AnUtterIdiot · 27/10/2017 08:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Piggywaspushed · 27/10/2017 08:40

I don't think all that many posters have read the 'article'. I am not defending his views, but it isn't clear that he has views and he is not coming out with anything voluntarily! He was snaffled at a charity do.

AnUtterIdiot · 27/10/2017 08:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

podiumFinish · 27/10/2017 08:42

Men and women do it. Perhaps women do it more as male brains tend to be more susceptible (blinded) by beauty.

I don't see what it has to do with Weinstein.

charmedrose · 27/10/2017 08:44

I don't see how he's a "twat" for saying something that we all know happens. He's just being honest. Confused

derxa · 27/10/2017 08:44

It wasn't very wise of him to make these comments at this time.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 27/10/2017 08:45

BlueLegume - it’s quite straightforward. No-one should do anything which is not freely and enthusiastically consented to by both parties. And men can “realise when assault is a bad experience that could have been avoided” by not committing it in the first place. Ditto for how to avoid being accused of crossing an unmarked line - the line is actually very clearly marked by current laws governing consent, abuse of power and sexual assault. Because I’m sure you’re not actually suggesting that women are responsible for being assaulted by predatory and powerful men or that they routinely and casually make up accusations?

I have managed to function in my career for nearly 25 years without
“fawning” Hmm . And I’d be worried by any man who expressed the opinions your DH has. Because what it seems to suggest is someone who doesn’t actually understand that women’s bodies are not there to be commented on, leered over or groped.

Of course, you/your DH may be the sort of people who assume that it is all a normal part of workplace life to: hold meetings in bathrobes and in bedrooms; touch people without their consent; imply that continued employment depends on the performing of sexual favours; ask people for massages; force oral sex on people; force people to give you oral sex; masturbate in front of people; rape people, and are thus concerned about how work will proceed in future. Because these are the things Weinstein is accused of doing. Not “presenting the best version of himself to the opposite sex”. Or are you in fact saying that in trying to present the best version of themselves to this immensely powerful and influential director, these women were consenting to all those potential acts? Or indeed that they brought such treatment on themselves?

AngelaTwerkel · 27/10/2017 08:47

"He rightly said it is perfectly normal for men and women to present their best version of themselves to the opposite sex be it socially or in the workplace. This generally involves a degree of flirtatious behaviour or to use his word “fawning”."

No, it is NOT normal, and any behaviour like that should be nipped in the bud! Personally I'm a professional at work, and I can only think of a few occasions in workplaces I've been in where people have tried to turn on the charm to get ahead and this has been very frowned upon. Most people manage to act like human beings instead of "fawning".

Autumnskiesarelovely · 27/10/2017 08:49

I think that we have to be very clear that there are no excuses for what. Weinstein did. None, all him and all abuses of power.

I am also uncomfortable with women using sex and flirtation to further careeers. It is sending men a message that women are ok with giving their sexuality to gain advancement. And other women that don’t are unfairly held back. We need to regain our sexuality as about fun, pleasure and love, not trading currency for richer, more powerful men we don’t fancy.

makeourfuture · 27/10/2017 08:53

Flirting behaviour can be a form of third-party sexual harassment. If you are viewing the behaviour, even if it is consensual between the people doing it, it intrudes on your worklife.

MorrisZapp · 27/10/2017 08:55

But it's about personal choice. See every attractive young woman married to a rich older man. It's a trade off, but one that benefits both parties. How do we put a stop to it and should we even try?

hardhatfirmlyon · 27/10/2017 08:56

He isn't a twat, he made a reasonable observation. Just because the HW scandal has shown how women are victims of sexual abuse doesn't mean that many women do use their wiles to get what they want. It has always been the case, don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise

This^^. He hasn't said that the women in the HW scandal or any other weren't the victims of vile sexual abuse - he was just pointing out that some actresses (and it is not confined to that industry) will have been draping themselves all over HW & other producers in an attempt to get work. In fact it fosters an environment in which nasty old pervs expect other women to be like that - it normalises it, which is disgusting. The women MC in this example is taking about - if they were intentionally and willingly taking part in sexual activity with HW or any of the other pervs were not part of the scandal - they were prostituting themselves (and were consensual in doing so). The sad morality behind prostitution is another whole issue or course - but there is no point in pretending that it doesn't happen or that it doesn't happen in this situation (where work is the currency).

Meanwhile though all Martin Clunes has done (albeit awkwardly) is point that out ^^. Also that article is about three lines long - presumably all the average Sun reader can manage, but it actually makes very little sense - it just a headline and an out of context quote with a load of photos.

makeourfuture · 27/10/2017 08:57

However, alluding to flirting in the midst of this on-going situation lends itself to comparison. He probably should have known this.

FlowerPot1234 · 27/10/2017 08:58

Autumnskiesarelovely

I think that we have to be very clear that there are no excuses for what. Weinstein did.
No excuses for any Weinstein rapes.

None, all him and all abuses of power.
Yes, for the rapes.

What about where women prostituted themselves with full consent with Weinstein though?

Chestervase1 · 27/10/2017 08:59

Actually I don’t think it was or is worse in the music industry. The Sex Pistols, after their appearance on Top of the Pops called Jimmy Saville out as a predator and a pervert and reported him to the BBC. Some people, normally those you don’t think of, have principles and morals:

famousfour · 27/10/2017 08:59

Blue legume I find your DH views odd. What industry does he work in? I am not familiar with this flirting and fawning of which he speaks. No one has yet suggested to me that sexual favours are part of my career path nor attended meetings semi dressed.

As to 'how to operate' - well it's pretty straight forward really. Treat people with respect and act like a decent human being towards others. Regardless of what appears to be possible or available. Should be ok then.

SoupDragon · 27/10/2017 09:01

I do think what he says is true but it was ill timed and I wonder if it is mis or deliberately partially quoted and taken out of context too.

I don't think he was saying "she deserved it" to any of those who were victims of abuse.

cushioncovers · 27/10/2017 09:02

No I don’t think what MC said makes him a twat, he’s making an observation. He doesn’t condone HW behaviour or blame the victims of HW.

I’m more disappointed with MC for receiving a ban from driving for drink driving several years ago.

cushioncovers · 27/10/2017 09:05

Sorry not for drink driving but banned for speeding.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 27/10/2017 09:06

It's not exactly a full report of what was said, but I am disappointed if he is one of those bloke's who starts going on about women who do consent to sexual activity (for whatever unsavoury motive) as a sort of acceptable context for the rape or assault by powerful men of women who obviously weren't.

But it is women (and men) who are prepared to exploit their sexuality which makes it so difficult to get to the truth in situations like this. It blurs the context and makes it a grey area rather than clear cut black and white.

Many more women are coming forward re: HW - a lot of them will have been given the confidence to speak out because it has been made public and they are no longer powerless - but I wonder if some are looking at this as away yo get themselves publicity and public sympathy? How will we ever know?

I'm very pleased that my children aren't in this industry: too easy for the vulnerable to be exploited; too easy for the influential to be accused; too easy for the manipulative to grab a chance to jump on a bandwagon.

TheAntiBoop · 27/10/2017 09:16

I'm confused why showing your best side involves flirting?

That is only relevant where the male in the situation believes the best side of a woman is the sexual side. How is that even relevant at work? If the managers first thought when recruiting is 'how shagable is she?' Then there is something very wrong about that manager.

Uokbing · 27/10/2017 09:19

DH made a really good point about this recently. He says how on earth are men (and women) going to operate as we move on from the Weinstein, and other similar cases. He rightly said it is perfectly normal for men and women to present their best version of themselves to the opposite sex be it socially or in the workplace. This generally involves a degree of flirtatious behaviour or to use his word “fawning”.

Your DH is talking bollocks.

GruesomeLadyOfMangling · 27/10/2017 09:25

'Some of these actresses, there are some draped over him in a club.
'If I did that to them I’d be . . . I don’t know. It’s not news that these predators allowed some people to . . . I don’t know.
'Of course it’s absolutely ghastly. It’s a form of prostitution — the oldest game in the book'

I agree with you OP. He appears to be calling women predators in the above statement with absolutely no reference to Pervy Wankstain's 69 complainants whatsoever. He is also not beyond reproach if we're slinging stones...

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1055426/Cocaine-cruelty-man-behaving-badly.html

Uokbing · 27/10/2017 09:25

No one should have to give a blow job to further their career, whether they are doing it 'willingly' or not. That's it really.

FlowerPot1234 · 27/10/2017 09:27

GruesomeLadyOfMangling

I agree with you OP. He appears to be calling women predators in the above statement with absolutely no reference to Pervy Wankstain's 69 complainants whatsoever.

I don't understand which point you are making here. Yes, he is calling some women predators. No he is not making reference to Weinstein in these comments. So...? Why are you agreeing with the OP that Clunes is a twat for making these statements? Confused