To think Trump voters are judged in fairly?

[1DAD2KIDS]

I was out for dinner the other night with my mate, his old buisness friend from New York (she was in London for buisness) and a few others. Anyway talk got to politics and she said I voted for Trump. Well the table when silent (sort of like that Harry Enfield Women Know Your Limits video when the woman expresses a political opinion of her own).

Anyway it got me thinking and challenging the stereotype of a 'typical' Trump supporter. This lady is no redneck, she is a lovely, kind, highly educated and intelligent lady. When I think about it in effectively a two party system were you can either vote A or B is voting for Trump that looney? Trump is rightfully vilified but was Clinton wrongfully given a free ride? Is she not a sinister figure herself? People who live in glass houses spring to mind.

Look at the alternative, Clinton. Someone who was backed finanialy by people who oppress women, oppress homosexuality and genrally oppress human rights. She is a woman that often made provocative threats to start conflicts against countries like Iran. Someone I see as quite a sinister character with fingers in many pies. Most of all a vote for Hillary was a vote for no change (which is fine if your happy with the status quo).

I sort of see being a voter at the time as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. So if your an American who has been disenfranchised, have not benefited from or felt forgotten about by the last administration would you vote for more of the same? Or would you take a chance on someone who offers change? Personally I think Trump is a complete disaster and a massive turd. But I think we fail to understand many of the people who voted for him. Instead we just demonise them all as thick bigoted rednecs. We blame the voters but I see Trump as the symptom not the cause of America's problems. In a way I see his election as symptomatic of the failure of the last administration for many Americans. So why would anyone who felt failed by their government vote for more of the same? Oddly I think many people who voted for Trump would have voted for Burnie given the option (as if the powers that be in the democrats would have ever let him stand).

I didn't have that preconceived idea of trump voters before I met her. I have argued that this stereotyping was inaccurate during and after the election.

I don't think it's inaccurate. I think, however, that it reveals uncomfortable truths about the people.

Great post Tsundoko.

I can't believe people still defend trump and trump supporters. I'm happy to judge them as morons.

No

1Dad - I missed your post talking about Trump as a symptom. You are correct but it's a symptom of racism, misogyny and over 20 years of the American right wing deconstructing political norms and taking ever more extreme positions to satisfy a religious fundamentalist base. A base whose rage was exacerbated in the wake of a black president.

I suggest reading up on the Tea Party movement (circa 2008?) for background on why the Reublican Party began taking more extreme positions (although appeasing evangelicals has been going on for far longer).

I would recommend looking into the Southern Strategy and gerrymandered redistricting (now found illegal in several places) for a look at both historic and modern tactics intended to compensate for their inability to appeal to non-white voters, as well as attempts to subvert democratic norms.

In recent years look into Boehner and McConnell's policies of filibustering everything even as a minority party (and again in contravention of historical norms) in an explicit attempt to obstruct Obama's government. The theft of Merrick Garland's Supreme Court seat is a prime example of this kind of overreach.

The American political system was designed to function with bipartisan cooperation. The Republicans have been systematically destroying that functionality while accusing anyone who points it out as biased. Faith in functioning democracy falls (because it is ceasing to function) and as a result people hate politics and politicians generally. People instead start listening to those that validate their anger. Trump gets elected.

So sure he's a symptom, but he's a symptom of a fucked up Republican party and a public without the critical thinking skills to avoid voting for con man.

Yes and yes again SatelliteCity

If you vote in a snake oil salesman then don't stand around pretending that snake oil can be beneficial and the voters can be forgiven because the label was unusual

I’m sure many republican voters are perfectly lovely and disagreed with Trump running. Many probably thought he was having fun pre election shaking up the system with no thought he’d actually win. A bit like cultural labour and Tory voters here - it can be very difficult to break out of your tribe.

OP, you say about looking at previous administrations to see what went wrong

what do you think went so wrong? I honestly don't know so I'm interested in your opinion and everyone's really.

NannyOggsKnickers

Instead of being tired about the "bullshit"

maybe we should take a moment to try and understand what is so fundamentally wrong with the current systems (UK and US) that people voted the way that they did.

Both Brexit and trump have some clear cut similarities yet people do prefer to name call and judge instead of asking why they voted the way that they did.

maybe we should take a moment to try and understand what is so fundamentally wrong with the current systems (UK and US) that people voted the way that they did.

How many 'moments' do you want? IME (and it's evident on this thread) you can engage in a long, detailed discussion about voting patterns and the evolution of political parties and a million different variables, but, still, ten million words later, someone still pop up and make a vague, sanctimonious comment about people preferring to 'name call and judge'.

There must have been a billion words written about why Trump voters voted, by now. All the tutting about 'not being too judgy' or 'let's think about this, people' seems a) completely oblivious to the mass of analysis already done, b) less concerned with achievable policy goals and counter-strategies than with inane virtue-signalling (hey, I don't judge: just because you vote for a disastrous, racist and misogynistic person, doesn't mean you're all that bad!) and c) worryingly keen to detach any personal responsibility from voters, who apparently should never be judged or blamed or even asked to justify their choices. No matter what happens, we all just have to sit around trying to politely discover what the fuck they were thinking, whilst obviously taking care not to cause any offense with our conclusions.

Tsundoku

How many 'moments' do you want?

As many as it takes for people to realise that there is an underlying issue and that calling people racist (or whatever) is just ignoring the ever growing issue of voter disaffection.

As many as it takes for people to realise that there is an underlying issue and that calling people racist (or whatever) is just ignoring the ever growing issue of voter disaffection.

But people are often racist, or sexist, or uninformed, or xenophobic. Candidates such as Trump recognise that and capitalise on it. But everyone else is supposed to politely ignore this (because it's not a nice fact) and even discreetly excuse it because of 'voter disaffection'? It seems like claiming 'voter disaffection' is a great way of evading any personal responsibility at all for your views or vote.

I know quite a few Trump voters. Same as I know a few Leave voters (sorry but I am going there ).
They have a conservative agenda that they want delivered and feared that a Hillary White House and Congress would destroy their agenda. They did a “deal with the Devil” to get what they wanted and fear any pushback as being contrary to the success of that agenda.
Congress has to deal with him. That and/or 25th Amendment if Mike Pence feels he has the support and, more importantly, wants to do it.
The Democrats cannot assume he’ll lose a second term or even not get there.

If I could like SatelliteCity`s post I would.

I am always willing to listen to those who are prepared to identify the deeper meanings and reason behind Trumpism, which included a bad candidate (HRC), and I am sympathetic to those who make the point that many are losing out from globalisation, but many who voted for Trump weren`t those who were losing out, and there is, and always has been a movement of racism and populism in the US that is very very ugly. Richard Hofstader wrote on it in the mid 20th century

Boney - what about when racism is part of the underlying problem? Or at the very least an integral part of the platform people are voting for. Are we not allowed to discuss that? Is it your position that there is no racism in this situation? Trump's policies have been found in the courts to be racially discriminatory. Republican redistricting efforts have been found in the courts to be racially discriminatory.

At what point are we allowed to talk about racism?

As many as it takes for people to realise that there is an underlying issue

Perhaps you can list some of these issues, because I'm yet to see any given, beyond there are some?

Tsundoku

But people are often racist, or sexist, or uninformed, or xenophobic. Candidates such as Trump recognise that and capitalise on it.

And so are those that vote for the "correct" side.

But by calling everyone that votes for trump "racist, or sexist, or uninformed, or xenophobic." you are ignoring those that have genuine issues that need to be addressed.

And if the issues were addressed and not ignored then trump wouldn't be able to capitalise on it.

or do you think that its OK that the UK (for instance) is run by people that fewer than 25% of the population voted for?

Tsundoku - "There must have been a billion words written about why Trump voters voted, by now."

well, apart from the piles of tsundoku I've yet to get to, a lot of it mystified me. There seemed to be a lot about how he would rebuild the economy but it didn't seem to me to have collapsed or anything.

then there was a lot of pulling back environment laws, health care laws...but an awful lot of what I read was "better than Hillary" and I still can't see why. I understand wanting to vote for a change, but not that one. Before the election I thought perhaps it was about a swing back to Republicanism but then again, Trump always stood out as being only there for himself.

There may be a difference between someone voting for Trump because he is a racist and someone voting for Trump because they don't care he is a racist

I'm not sure how big a difference that is tbh

Saying 'they are not racist but they were sufficiently dissatisfied to be perfectly happy to put a racist in the White House' isn't helpful is it?

I can't get too upset about people wanting an apology because they are not racist, they just chose to vote for one

I totally strangled my own point at the end but I hope you see what I mean.

And the 'straight talking' thing that people like from Trump and Farage is just 'he articulates my prejudices '

SatelliteCity

Surely you can discuss it without assuming that everyone that voted in a way differently to you is racist?

Grimbles

some that I have heard
Lack of investment in rural areas (road, business, health, police, education, regeneration)
governments shoving more people in to rural areas (not talking about ethnic minorities).
Lack of jobs
poor education set up

At what point are we allowed to talk about racism?

Increasingly, you're not. Calling someone a racist is worse than actual racism. I've seen people dismiss structural racism or racist language in an instant (it's all just people looking to be offended) but explode with indignity when it's even faintly suggested that they might be racist. HOW VERY DARE YOU!

Haven't rtft so apologies if this has been said, but you lost me OP at the comment regarding the previous adminsitration. In part, we have Trump now because of the colour of the previous administration, not really too sure you can blame Obama for that...

Do people really think we'd have Trump now if the previous president had been white?

All that Trump and Farage did was give unhappy, disempowered people someone to blame
They have them foreigners and the elite

People voted for agendas proposed by people who could not be more racist, nor more clearly members of the elite and they thought they were 'sticking it to the man'

It really is stupid. I'd like it to be less so but it's just stupidity

I don't care much about whether Trump is racist or sexist. There are at least a dozen things for me that are even more objectionable about Trump. I guess for many of his supporters, they care even less about his racist/sexist behaviour than I do.

McCain has staunchly opposed Chump from the Start. I think I'm now a quiet admirer of Sen Flake, who just delivered some very articulate reasons why he opposes Trump. I've heard some great rants by Republicans who oppose Trump.