To think Trump voters are judged in fairly?

[1DAD2KIDS]

I was out for dinner the other night with my mate, his old buisness friend from New York (she was in London for buisness) and a few others. Anyway talk got to politics and she said I voted for Trump. Well the table when silent (sort of like that Harry Enfield Women Know Your Limits video when the woman expresses a political opinion of her own).

Anyway it got me thinking and challenging the stereotype of a 'typical' Trump supporter. This lady is no redneck, she is a lovely, kind, highly educated and intelligent lady. When I think about it in effectively a two party system were you can either vote A or B is voting for Trump that looney? Trump is rightfully vilified but was Clinton wrongfully given a free ride? Is she not a sinister figure herself? People who live in glass houses spring to mind.

Look at the alternative, Clinton. Someone who was backed finanialy by people who oppress women, oppress homosexuality and genrally oppress human rights. She is a woman that often made provocative threats to start conflicts against countries like Iran. Someone I see as quite a sinister character with fingers in many pies. Most of all a vote for Hillary was a vote for no change (which is fine if your happy with the status quo).

I sort of see being a voter at the time as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. So if your an American who has been disenfranchised, have not benefited from or felt forgotten about by the last administration would you vote for more of the same? Or would you take a chance on someone who offers change? Personally I think Trump is a complete disaster and a massive turd. But I think we fail to understand many of the people who voted for him. Instead we just demonise them all as thick bigoted rednecs. We blame the voters but I see Trump as the symptom not the cause of America's problems. In a way I see his election as symptomatic of the failure of the last administration for many Americans. So why would anyone who felt failed by their government vote for more of the same? Oddly I think many people who voted for Trump would have voted for Burnie given the option (as if the powers that be in the democrats would have ever let him stand).

woollyminded I'm not sure how you see it as insulting? Although I get that text can be a bit subjective and different people can get different spins on things. We all on hear come from different perspectives and see the world through different lenses. That's what makes conversation interesting and challenging. I see the world maybe less black and white than some but I'm not saying that all on here are tottaly partisan or critical. But likewise it probably untruthful to say that there are not some on here who are not partisan or polorised. We are all different.

Slimthistime - me neither, yes people were saying that they think Trump is an awful man and that it's very very hard to understand why anyone would vote for him. Somehow this equates to 'throwing insults'. I don't know, the man is a self-confessed sexual predator, I don't understand why bringing this up is not considered a reasonable point of discussion.

Dam dyslexia

• I see the world maybe less black and white than some but I'm not saying that all on here are tottaly partisan or incapable critical thinking. But likewise it probably untruthful to say that there are not some on here who are totally partisan or polorised. We are all different.

Now how many of you honestly if you put your self in the shoes of a German at the time would have said something or resiseted?

Very few, but I suspect the normal people in the population who didn't vote for Hitler had more peaceful nights' sleep than those who did. Once it became clear that Hitler was a bad sort, I bet the non-Hitler voters often thought "That Hitler chap? Well, on balance I'm pleased I didn't vote for him."

It's quickly reaching the stage where the right need only point to the left and say "just look at the state of them" in order to win elections.

No. It's reached the stage where various right-wing politicians have abandoned even the pretence of integrity or restraint.

They've realised you can say absolutely anything, even something instantly, provably untrue, and if you shout it loud enough then a certain number of people will lap it up.

They've realised you can weather any number of personal scandals and awful behaviour by doing this shit so relentlessly that people can barely keep up, and then excusing yourself with outright denials (even if instantly, provably untrue: see above) or by basically saying, yeah, so what?

They've realised you don't have to adhere to any standard of political discourse or common decency, if you break through them with no semblance of embarrassment or hesitation: that you can stand up there and yell racist, sexist, xenophobic and ignorant mantras, and make obviously fake promises, and - as long as you do it with conviction - people will lap it up.

They've realised that when people are desperate, impoverished or disenfranchised, you don't actually have to improve their lives. You just need to give them permission to blame someone else: the immigrants, the godless lefties, the media.

They've realised that a lot of people aren't interested in lengthly debate about intricate and often boring (in detail) issues of economic policy or international relations, and that these same people are glad of an excuse to opt out. You don't need to engage with all that! The media are fake and we've had enough of experts.

They've realised that their voters need a cop-out, when the promises turn out to be empty and people are worse off than ever, and that cop-out is: the left made me vote for an extreme right-winger. It's not that he offered completely insincere and unrealistic promises of future gain, and it's not that he tapped into some of the nastier aspects of human nature, and it's not that the momentum of rallies, flags, screamed mantras and total certainty appealed to me. Nope. The left weren't nice enough, and whatever I did was their fault.

Well I think YOU judged Trump voters unfairly. You presumed they were all "others" - people who were not like you, maybe people who spoke in heavy southern accents, no education, probably overweight and white, highly prejudiced, etc. Once you had categorised them like that, you were happy to judge them as stupid and evil. Then when you discovered someone who was quite like you had voted for Trump, you decided you'd better change your mind about what voting for Trump really means.

There is a lot of debate in the US at the moment about who voted for Trump and why and a lot of people trying not to demonise Trump voters but understand them. It is also worth remembering that a majority of americans who voted did not vote for Trump. (But enough americans voted for him that he legitimately won the election).

I'm very tired of the old guff that has been following Hillary Clinton around for years but the sad truth is the democrats managed to field possibly the only candidate who would lose against someone like Trump. She was unelectable back in 2008 (which is why I voted for Obama in the primary - I would have loved to have seen a female president) and nothing had changed in the meantime.

Meanwhile, Trump is not just a bad president, he is debasing the office itself, mostly because he doesn't understand or appreciate its importance and history. It is worth listening to the republican Senator Flack's resignation speech from a day or so ago. Bob Corker also worth a listen.

1dad, yes, that was my point. I was responding to Somerford -

This thread is a pretty good example of the reasons why so many people voted for Trump. The left is hurling abuse while ... snip...will follow unless their left-leaners can debate without abusing, slandering, patronising and condescending vast swathes of people. Stop making the mistake of thinking that everyone agrees with you because of the delusion presented to you by liberal journalists and a few pockets of the internet

Clinton. Someone who was backed finanialy by people who oppress women, oppress homosexuality and genrally oppress human rights

And Trump and his pals are trying to do those things in America.

YABU.

Trouble is I see Trump as being almost a red herring to the real issuse. What has gone wrong with society when he has become the best of the two options presented? We focus on trump and his supporters. But we don't focus on the previous administrations that have lead to an America where Trump became for many the best option. For me he is the symptom not the illness.

Tsundoko I see the " left" going exactly the same.
I hear the same cries of racism, xenophobic, misogyny about the right whilst actually seeing most of those behaviours from my delightful Remain/Trump hating friends.

pallisers actully no. I didn't have that preconceived idea of trump voters before I met her. I have argued that this stereotyping was inaccurate during and after the election.

I’m actually sitting in Amsterdam airport on my way back from California (Sacramento area) and spoke to about 4 different working class men aged 50-60 in bars (I must sound like a total harlot grin) who on first glance I guessed were probably Trump supporters but they all hated him! 2 were ex forces and 1 was a farmer, I think.
How wonderfully patronising!

Politics is often about making a choice between candidates you aren't happy about and you often end up taking the least worst option. If you are a voter that thinks trump is the least worst option.......

How was she able to reconcile the misogyny, homophobia, racism etc etc.

People are able to reconcile all sorts of contradictory belief systems. As a disabled person I could easily fall into the trap of hating all conservative voters (and often do!) as there are times when I do not understand how people can condone the assault on the rights and the quality of life of the disabled via ATOS etc after countless sick/disabled people have been left in poverty or even homeless and without the care they need. Yet I have a friend who has had a very privileged life and votes conservative. She is also highly generous and a lovely person.

I see what you are trying to say, OP but I think this is such a highly emotive subject that people feel incredibly passionately about it. I both see your point and also agree with those shouting 'no, they're all idiots'. People are complicated!

The NAZI's were a lot more seductive and less overt avout the darker side of plans prior to gaining power.

I know the discussion has moved on, but this isn't true. Hitler published Mein Kampf in the twenties, and was always clear about his anti-semitic agenda and the need to remove 'Hebrew corrupters'. It's such a cop-out (or just very ignorant) to say the Nazis were in any way subtle or seductive.

A family member of mine voted for him. She is a woman, and has a daughter. But hey, only the economy matters to her. She likes his straight-talking approach. And hates Hilary.
It makes for "interesting" conversation!

Politics is often about making a choice between candidates you aren't happy about and you often end up taking the least worst option. If you are a voter that thinks trump is the least worst option.......

Yes, dh used to say it was like being offered a choice of AIDS or herpes. You mightn't really like to have herpes but if you have to make the choice ....

It is interesting to watch the republicans at the moment. They have the presidency, the house, and the senate. They should be implementing their agenda right left and center - after all they have a clear mandate. Instead they are incapable of passing a single piece of legislation. They had 8 years to come up with an alternative to obamacare and have nothing. A tax reform bill should be easy for them - it is one of the few things all republicans used to agree on (along with free trade but they dropped that one apparently) but I'm not holding my breath on tax reform either. It seems their mandate is to talk tough but not actually do anything.

The one thing that Trump is demonstrating is just what the president does and what happens when he is incapable of doing it.

I do tirenif this bullshit about the abusive left.

Trump: I like to grab women by the pussy.

People: that is disgusting sexual harassment and not something we expect from a president.

Right wingers in the media: way, the left are so abusive to us. Stop calling us names. We didn’t do anything wrong.

People in power, who are oppressing others, need to stop whining when pulled up for their crap. Calling someone out on racist, xenophobic, sexist things that they have openly said is not bullying. Stop saying shitty things and people will stop telling you off for them. Just stop being a dick. It’s not difficult.

Unless, of course, you see nothing wrong with your behaviour. In which case, there’s no help for you.

nanny

I agree

And ive seen it loads on threads...complain about something the tory party is doing...you are obviously a leftie

Complain about trump...you are obviously a leftie

Its weird

rufus It’s obviously the fall back defense people use when they haven’t got a real point to make and know that they haven’t got a moral leg to stand on.

Some of the verbal tap dancing i’ve seen people do to defend Trump from things he’s openly said is hilarious.

The issues reallybis thatbsome people are so dogmatic about their political beliefs that is is easier to lie to themselves and others than accept that the person they backed is a bad guy.

1DAD my mums family are German. Talking to them about politics in the 1920s /30s Germany has been fascinating if not always very comfortable. The reality is that there were very clear indications of the darker side of the National Socialist party from quite early on, mixed in with the "restoring national pride" and "saving the economy" (just as there are with Trump). No, people didn't necessarily vote for the gas chambers but they did vote for the social attitudes that paved the way to its door. And if they later lost control of the monster, they did initially invite it in.

1DAD - forgive me because this sounds goady but I'm genuinely confused. Is your position that the historical lesson we need you learn from the Nazis is that we shouldn't be too hard on people who voted for them?

That's not going to prevent a repetition, it's going to ensure one. And it certainly wouldn't have helped after the fact.

The way you make sure Trump's election doesn't pave the way to violent fascism is to ensure he doesn't become normalised even if that's uncomfortable.

You also continually insist that "racism" is an easy, black and white answer that can't possibly explain what happened. I would argue that racism is an enormously sophisticated, complex construct that has been at work in our society for millennia. Of course con artists and demagogues will leverage it.

So again, Trump's well-documented racism may not have been why your acquaintance chose to vote for Trump, but it was something that she decided wasn't disqualifying.

I am not a fan of Trump. I always thought he was a bit of a buffoon until I watched the documentary about how he railroaded the golf course in Scotland. The tactics used by his company was shocking. I think he is a deeply unpleasant man

I couldn't believe he was a credible presidential candidate and yet there he was, voted in good and proper. I watched a news report about who voted because not everyone is a chest bearing knuckle dragger or some unpleasant things stated up thread. They interviewed intelligent and articulate people who voted for Trump. One guy said he was fed up with dynasties what is the alternative, another Bush or anothet Clinton. Little was made in Europe (I am English but currently living in Scandinavia) over the allegations and mistrust there was for Hillary, one guy said 'Trump is so rich he can't be corrupted with money' Although do believe you can be corrupted no matter how much you have, he clearly didn't trust Hilary. A few people said it was his lack of political experience that attracted them, they thought it would be less spin and posturing and more honesty. Another said, how bad can it be. We have lost massive industry. Obama failed to implement banking changes he promised. It's not forever, he won't be a king. The whole thing got me thinking.

I think it's easy to sit on the sidelines, and say they are all idiots and should not have voted for him but the fact is, he appealed to the voting public and other candidates despite all their combined history and experience didn't. I don't live there. I don't know everyone voted for Trump so I agree with you OP it is not my place to judge.

The irony of Trump is that, for all of his tough talk, he's the Snowflake-in-Chief of the US.

yet there he was, voted in good and proper

Well... He did loose the popular vote. Elected, yes. Good and proper, not so much.