To think Trump voters are judged in fairly?

[1DAD2KIDS]

I was out for dinner the other night with my mate, his old buisness friend from New York (she was in London for buisness) and a few others. Anyway talk got to politics and she said I voted for Trump. Well the table when silent (sort of like that Harry Enfield Women Know Your Limits video when the woman expresses a political opinion of her own).

Anyway it got me thinking and challenging the stereotype of a 'typical' Trump supporter. This lady is no redneck, she is a lovely, kind, highly educated and intelligent lady. When I think about it in effectively a two party system were you can either vote A or B is voting for Trump that looney? Trump is rightfully vilified but was Clinton wrongfully given a free ride? Is she not a sinister figure herself? People who live in glass houses spring to mind.

Look at the alternative, Clinton. Someone who was backed finanialy by people who oppress women, oppress homosexuality and genrally oppress human rights. She is a woman that often made provocative threats to start conflicts against countries like Iran. Someone I see as quite a sinister character with fingers in many pies. Most of all a vote for Hillary was a vote for no change (which is fine if your happy with the status quo).

I sort of see being a voter at the time as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. So if your an American who has been disenfranchised, have not benefited from or felt forgotten about by the last administration would you vote for more of the same? Or would you take a chance on someone who offers change? Personally I think Trump is a complete disaster and a massive turd. But I think we fail to understand many of the people who voted for him. Instead we just demonise them all as thick bigoted rednecs. We blame the voters but I see Trump as the symptom not the cause of America's problems. In a way I see his election as symptomatic of the failure of the last administration for many Americans. So why would anyone who felt failed by their government vote for more of the same? Oddly I think many people who voted for Trump would have voted for Burnie given the option (as if the powers that be in the democrats would have ever let him stand).

If you vote for a racist and a self confessed sexual predator, you might not be those things, but you are condoning them, so you are not a lovely person in my view.

Who are we to judge in the UK?
We voted for Brexit because of Nigel Farage??

Yeah I’m a remainer but I also could not vote for a Clinton if I was American

F that S

OP " So if your an American who has been disenfranchised, have not benefited from or felt forgotten about by the last administration would you vote for more of the same? Or would you take a chance on someone who offers change?"

looking at this earlier, what kind of change did Trump offer? Again, I think he was very honest about who he is but what could people have thought he was offering? More jobs for Americans, in theory, but I would be interested to see the stats on employees at his hotels and clubs.

there are always times when we are offered such a crap choice, we wonder why we bother. But on this occasion I thought he said more than enough to make people who weren't bothered at least go to vote to avoid him getting in.

Also, I am still mystified why Hillary was seen as a war mongering candidate. I was baffled at the time and I'm no clearer now. I have friends in the US who sent me some of the alarming crap that was peddled, but even then, I didn't see how Hillary could seem more keen on war than Trump.

There were reasons that people voted for Hitler in the mid 1930s. That doesn't make them any less responsible for what they got.

I can't get my head around people who declare a political position then get all pissy when people give them an opinion back. Where are people getting the idea that free speech means stomping around spouting stuff while everyone else quietly listens and doesn't respond?

On the matter of Trump voting woman from New York, if she doesn't want to be judged and criticised for it then she needs to not declare it. That's the deal no matter where you stand on political stuff but double so on the sticky stuff. My cousin lives in Brussels, when people ask her (pretty much daily) about you-know-what she answers 'don't want to talk about it' as she is tired of going round and round it.

I'm happy to judge thanks.
A huge proportion of people who voted brexit were as stupid and racist as the people who voted for Trump.
I'm happy to have as little time for fuckwit brexiters as I am fuckwit Trump voters.

I think it is masivly dangerous not scratch the surface and look a the problems in society that lead to people using their vote that way? Surely something is masivly wrong in America for people to vote that way?

I think the fact that there is something massively wrong with America is pretty evident right now. And you don't need to scratch too deep to find the reason. It's decades of myopia, lack of critical education, misogyny, and racism. This is a country that holds a lump of plastic and metal at more value than an actual person. It's sick and dying.

I can understand why people voted for Trump, to a certain extent.

I cannot, however, understand why any of them would continue to support the stupid cunt now, and I'll judge the arse off anyone who does.

Yeah I’m a remainer but I also could not vote for a Clinton if I was American That sums it up for me. She was a terrible candidate mired in corruption.

Slim - don't forget that Hillary won nearly 3 millions more votes. Trump won because of about 30,000 people in some marginal districts. Districts where a lot of targeted and potentially illegal and untruthful campaigning was going on.

In terms of something being massively wrong in America, there really must be for people to vote for Trump. What I think I've done wrong is not realised how problematic the misogyny, racism and worship of money was.

We have come to a bizarre stage - probably coming to the UK too - where people feel that it's more important for corporates to make masses of money, presumably for the masses of children to get job, than it is to look at any possible alternative economic model and perhaps the Democratic focus on better public healthcare was part of that panic.

I am prepared to listen politely to anyone who has voted for Trump but I do agree with pp that if you declare a political position you should expect to be challenged on it. I haven't told anyone in real life how I voted the last few times because I can't be arsed to have the conversation, frankly.

This thread is a pretty good example of the reasons why so many people voted for Trump. The left is hurling abuse while the right is busy winning votes from the people you've alienated. If you're happy with that then crack on by all means, but expect many more Trump/Brexit type "shock" results in the coming years.

It's quickly reaching the stage where the right need only point to the left and say "just look at the state of them" in order to win elections. We are already there in Britain and the USA actually, Continental Europe and Australia will follow unless their left-leaners can debate without abusing, slandering, patronising and condescending vast swathes of people. Stop making the mistake of thinking that everyone agrees with you because of the delusion presented to you by liberal journalists and a few pockets of the internet. The left has detached itself from it's voter base and it is not winning the argument with anybody else.

derxa - still not a good reason to vote for Trump though.

Kid "I can understand why people voted for Trump, to a certain extent"

I'd be really interested to hear further thoughts on that but I totally get it if you can't be arsed

I’m actually sitting in Amsterdam airport on my way back from California (Sacramento area) and spoke to about 4 different working class men aged 50-60 in bars (I must sound like a total harlot ) who on first glance I guessed were probably Trump supporters but they all hated him! 2 were ex forces and 1 was a farmer, I think.

I was quite surprised TBH! Especially as they were the ones that started the subject.

The left is hurling abuse

Sorry, do you mean not accepting and vocally calling out racism, sexism and fascism?

BarbarianMum well actully that is all to simplistic in my mind. Collective action is a fasinating area of human conditioning. The NAZI's were a lot more seductive and less overt avout the darker side of plans prior to gaining power. Germany was in a very dark place and people were desperate. Once the NAZIs got into power how responsible were people then? On the face of it very individually responsible you could say. They saw the people disappear. They drove the trains to death camps. The people knew what the regime was doing and actively carried on functing in the regime. So you could say that all them Germans were evil for their part in it knowing full well what was going on. Now how many of you honestly if you put your self in the shoes of a German at the time would have said something or resiseted? So does than make say 90% of the German people evil? Or do we need to scratch the surface deeper to look at the causes of this.

And that is my point about how we view Trump supporters. If we don't look at addressing the reasons why people supported such a vile man we don't learn the lessons of history. It's is far to black and white to say Trump supporters are evil.

(By the way Filter and Trump are very diffent people. Hitler powered by ideology and a vision for his Nation, Trump powered by is own ego and no ideology)

somerford I'm a centrist all the way. This thread has specifically asked if it's OK to judge someone who has declared themselves to have supported Trump. I judge them.

Your point is insulting. You assume that people on Mumsnet do not have rounded areas of interest, that we get our information from single partisan sources and that is simply not true. There are plenty of traditional media and internet articles that lean pro-Brexit/Trump/other right leaning interests and you are wrong to assume that people take a different position because they haven't been engaged or clever enough to have read the things you have.

Sorry

Apology accepted.

do you mean not accepting and vocally calling out racism, sexism and fascism?

No, that's not what I mean.

derxa - still not a good reason to vote for Trump though. Well I didn't have a vote. People must have looked at the two and thought Trump was the lesser of two evils. Hilary still doesn't get it as evidenced by her recent book tour. Rather than slinging mud at Trump voters people should be focussing on the reasons why him and not Hilary. For the love of God there must have two better candidates to be found in the whole of the USA.

Somerford
Im happy to debate left wing and right wing politics but that's not really the point here is it? It's not Trump being a republican/ right winger that's the problem , it's the fact that he's a racist, unstable bully who has no decency.

Pretending that saying 'Trump is an idiot, racist bully' is somehow the left patronising the right is nonsense and pretending that racism is not racist but part of a normal right leaning value system is dangerous.

Oh somerford, stop being so silly (goady). You said you wanted the lefties to talk and not throw insults. You need to lead by example if that's what you expect.

I agree. You'd totally get flamed if you lumped people into a stereotyped mass because of their choice of religion or eating habits or body art. Somehow it's acceptable to label every Trump and Brexiteer voter as a sterotype.

I'm finding MN very hard today because a top ad is blocking half my view a lot of the time, but I can't see anyone who has thrown insults.