Paying £100's for mongrels

[dimondjedi9]

All I have seen on Facebook is adverts selling so called ‘designer’ puppies for ridiculous amounts of money.
All these Jackerpoos, cockerpoo, yorkieshit etc are basically mongrels, it amazes me why people would pay £700+ for a mongrel.
The definition of mongrel is:
Any animal resulting from the crossing of different breeds or types.
We rescued our little Westie from travellers, she had been bred and bred until she became of no use, the amount of different puppies they were selling was unreal, crossing them with everything.
Surely the worry will be that if these dogs keep being inbred all the time then the true breed will disappear, Facebook should ban the selling of any animal, especially on the run up to xmas!

“Never buy a puppy as they just help support puppy farms where dogs are maltreated.”

Not every puppy if from a farm. Mine is from a one-off gamekeepers Home bred litter. Some would say That’s a BYB but the dogs were bred for ability, not for cash, so care was taken to match a sire and dam and they were well cared for. Many of the litter are in working or sporting homes.

Bad breeders can be puppy farms of KC registered but it not the breeding that makes them bad, it’s the way they do it.

You'd rather genuine accidents? That doesn't sound very responsible

No. I;d rather there was no random breeding, but it will occasionally happen, and someone who genuinely cares about their pet, but has had an accidental pregnancy, is more likely take care of the puppies properly, too.

You are taking comments out of context and deliberately misrepresenting them for your own purposes.

There is nothing wrong with mongrels.

Mongrel is a description, not a pejorative.

I have nothing against mongrels or cross-breeds BUT I feel that in an ideal world the only dogs that are bred would come from health-tested parents and be bred for a reason (that reason can be to be pets).

This ideal will never happen

Despite this, we should all do EVERYTHING we can to reduce the number of badly-bred puppies produced in horrific conditions by doing our research and being prepared to WAIT until the right dog is available.

And never buying a dog on a whim, or as a gift.

Yours is an excellent commentFairfax - there are many KC breeders who are appalling, breeding to ridiculous standards because that is what wins prizes.

And for what it's worth, I don't regard someone like your gamekeeper breeder asa BYB - to my mind a BYB is someone repeatedly breeds from dogs without caring whether they are fit or unfit, not giving them proper care in pregnancy, whelping or rearing, and not giving a damn where they go to or what happens to them when they leave their dam.

Some people have a single litter from a pet bitch to keep a puppy. As long as they go to a healthy, reputable stud dog, and care properly for the bitch and her puppies, ensuring (as far as they can) good permanent homes, these people aren't BYB's either.

It's all really in the frequency of the breeding from each bitch, the health of the parent dogs, and the care even to the puppies and where they end up.

Schadenfreude my girl is excellent.* If it wasn’t for her slight nervousness (she was attacked by a local dog early on and now requires very positive training methods - in the wrong hands she could easily be turned aggressive) I would have bred from her myself.* Her instinct and ability to learn is amazing.

Dunno what’s going on with the weird bolding in this thread

Givemeallthechocolate
You know I don't agree with calling them mongrels.
I just think it's really nasty.
What, in case your dog happens to be reading this thread?

We have an 'expensive mongrel' because its what suited us at the time we were looking.

Some owners (usually men) ask me the breed and then guffaw and pompously say 'you mean a mongrel'. That attitude hacks me off.

Also, I kind of feel 'mongrel' has a lovely air of mystery about it, whereas we know our dogs parentage/lineage etc. so is quite boring.

As an aside, we've been very lucky as the puppy has been easy to train and has not chewed furniture etc. We also have a rescue and he has cost us far more in replacement furniture etc than we paid for the puppy.

*What is wrong with a pure bred poodle?

I don’t want a bloody poodle. I wanted a larger dog.*
A standard poodle is pretty big!

I’ve got a purebred pedigree dog, the breed are known for being hardy, the most common cause of death for the breed is being hit by a car. Saying cross breeds are healthier is a rubbish sweeping generalisation. Some pure breeds are full of issues, some are not. Some cross breeds are full of issues. Some are not.

Personally I don't think you should pay £100s for any breed of dog. I know there's a thin line, if you charge too little you could potentially be selling to someone who is going to mistreat a dog. But also just because someone can afford to pay £1000 on a dog doesn't automatically make them a good owner.
As I have never breed dogs I have no idea realistically how much it costs to have a little and have all the necessary health checks done on the parents, but I struggle to believe that if your dog had a little of about 5 puppies you wouldn't need to charge much more than about £500 to still make some money (if anyone does breed dogs please feel free to correct me). Perhaps if the reputable breeders charged less to begin with, people would be less inclined to go to puppy farmers and backyard breeds.
But sadly this is the world we live in, people see it as a opportunity to make money. And this isnt just crossbreeds / mongrels. This is whatever dog is popular at any given time including pedigrees.

I struggle to believe that if your dog had a little of about 5 puppies you wouldn't need to charge much more than about £500 to still make some money

On the whole, I agree, but it depends on a lot of factors.

If you health test and take care to put your bitch to the best stud dog (by that I don't mean the one who wins the most prizes - I mean the one whose good points are likely to overcome her bad ones, health and conformation-wise) then you may have to go to the opposite and of ythe country to find her a mate.

If you have a brachycephalic (flat-faced), large headed breed (e.g. modern-day bulldogs, pugs, then you could well need a c-section for your bitch (a result of the rubbish KC standards that many breeders adhere to) that costs £££s - and often these breeds only have small litters, so there might only be three or four pups. £500 each will leave you well out of pocket.

A neighbour (who has now thankfully moved) used to breed labradors (she had SEVEN in an ordinary semi - great, fat lumbering show-type dogs). She had at least one litter a year - ALWAYS had problems with whelping (which is unusual in labs, and suggests she shouldn't have been breeding from those bitches), almost always had puppies with cleft palates in the litters (ditto) but continued to breed them because she "loved" her dogs, and they did well at shows.

She got between £800 and £1,000 for her puppies, (and this was 10- 15 years ago), but didn't often have more than five or so "good" (i.e. healthy) pups in a litter.

A standard poodle is pretty big! That's what I thought when I read that post Rosy.

And they are sadly becoming pretty rare - though I saw a beautiful one the other day - parti-coloured (so not recognised by the kennel club). She was black and white in the traditional border collie patterning - what a stunner! The owner had imported her from Holland where they are very popular apparently.

Lovely dog Fairfax - that fox red is such a rich colour, isn't it?

And as someone else said - the difference between show and working labs is huge. Practically different breeds.

Schadenfreude it’s even more pronounced in spaniels (we had springers till the tail dock ban).**

I love a fox red.** Doodle isn’t even that dark (though definitely a ginger ninja)

I have a friend with a standard poodle, lovely dog.

However when out and about everyone assumes it’s a labradoodle. I don’t think they can get their heads round a poodle looking like a dog and not some effeminate french fancy with those ridiculous show haircuts.

Ignorance again.

An neighbour bred her dog, it had 5 puppies and they sold for £750, about 10 years ago. They made no money after stud fees, vet bills, microchipping, kc registering, vaccination, food, etc. They never bred again, said the worry and stress just wasn’t worth it.

My parents have a 5 year old cockerpoo, so got him just as they were becoming popular... now every other dog I see is a cokerpoo! However I can see why! He’s the ideal dog. Very healthy, intelligent, friendly, non-shedding, a good size... I wouldn’t trade him for a pedigree if you paid me. I’m pro-crossbreeds tbh. A well bred crossbreed dog is just as healthy (if not healthier) and with as good a temperament as a pedigree.

However when out and about everyone assumes it’s a labradoodle. I don’t think they can get their heads round a poodle looking like a dog and not some effeminate french fancy with those ridiculous show haircuts.

I think misconceptions about poodles are the one of the main reasons why their crosses are so popular. People see them in show clips and write them off as useless frou frou dogs however it seems that what most people want when the decide to get a "cockapoo" is pretty much just a miniature poodle with a sensible haircut.

He’s the ideal dog. Very healthy, intelligent, friendly, non-shedding, a good size...

All that would apply just as well to a miniature poodle from a decent breeder. Cockers and miniature poodles actually share a high proportion of the health issues (including the most common) that can affect either breed so a cross of the two is not really any more or less likely to be healthy than a pedigree poodle.

Miniature poodle in a pet clip versus a "cockapoo".

Vet Health checks

You mean health tests? The vet will go 'Yeah, it has a uterus/balls, breed it', at least some vets will. The more responsible ones will at least ask why.

My parents have a 5 year old cockerpoo, so got him just as they were becoming popular... now every other dog I see is a cokerpoo! However I can see why! He’s the ideal dog. Very healthy, intelligent, friendly, non-shedding, a good size... I wouldn’t trade him for a pedigree if you paid me. I’m pro-crossbreeds tbh. A well bred crossbreed dog is just as healthy (if not healthier) and with as good a temperament as a pedigree.

Where is your evidence that a crossbreed, no matter how well bred, may be healthier than a pedigree? If both parents have been health tested, the pups from a crossbreed/pedigree litter are as likely to be as healthy as each other.

Ime, cockerpoos are not as likely to be as healthy due to the amount of unscrupulous breeders who have jumped on the designer crossbreed wagon and who are in it for profit rather than improving a new type. I'd also like to know why that particular crossbreed appears to command higher prices than a well-bred pedigree cocker or poodle.

By the way, not all cockerpoos are non-shedding, it depends on the alleles passed on by the parents.

My dog groomer really hates poodle crosses.

Says the coats tend to get matted extremely easily. She’s lost count of the times a poo has been brought in and the only option is to shave it as the coat matts to form a fleece, and you just cannot do anything with it. They take much more upkeep than a poodle or whatever it’s crossed with.

*Vet Health checks

You mean health tests? The vet will go 'Yeah, it has a uterus/balls, breed it', at least some vets will. The more responsible ones will at least ask why*

No, i mean the prenatal checks to make sure the pregnancy is progressing correctly, keeping the bitch healthy, plus the post natal checks on the puppies and bitch right up until weaning.

Sadly, my groomer friend shows me the tangles she's had to cut from coats daily (salon is on my yard) because the owners haven't touched the coat for the 6 weeks between grooms. They think the coat will miraculously self groom. Some serious misconceptions about coat type with poodle crosses.

No, i mean the prenatal checks to make sure the pregnancy is progressing correctly, keeping the bitch healthy, plus the post natal checks on the puppies and bitch right up until weaning.

But hopefully correct health tests-hip/elbow/eye scores etc-are carried out before pregnancy even occurs?

Yep - both of our spanners (a springer and a cocker) are working type. Full time job to keep exercised and mentally stimulated, but so worth it. The cocker in particular is so intelligent it's almost frightening - you can actually see her working things out. (springer is bright but bananas).

There's a man who was very keen to breed his westiepoo (or whatever it is) with one of ours - asked about it every single time we saw him (nice enough dog - nice enough bloke, for that matter, but talk about persistent). It was with great relief that I was able to announce that our cocker bitch had been spayed ("her ovaries are in heaven - no chance of puppies") so that he stopped harping on about it. The last time I saw him he was talking about putting an advert online "Barney (not the dog's name) wants a wife."

I despair - I really do,

My dsis is currently researching french bulldog puppies. She phoned and asked her vet if it was a breed that had a lot of issues. His advice was find a french bulldog x instead.

The price of a french bulldog is around 1.5k to 2k. The price of crossbreeds is around £500. Or at least the (accidental) litter she has found is.

I am in the fence with it all. As an owner of a kc reg'd bitch of a breed that isnt known for any health issues (whippet) I did consider having a litter from her but decided against due to the fact that there are whippets and other sighthounds in rescue. And it's not a breed that is struggling in numbers.

On the other hand I can understand people who do breed pedigree dogs. As long as it is done properly with all the relevant health checks, the puppies stand a good chance of finding a new home and the rescues aren't bursting of that particular breed (am thinging of staffies etc) then I don't think it's anyone elses business. Pet owners have as much right to breed as the so called responsible breeders. Pet breeders breeding for pet homes are unlikely to be too worried about what particular breed trait is 'in' for the ring and they are probably less likely to line breed.

Breeders breeding purely for profit or for the ring or 'to improve the breed' are doing more harm than pet breeders imo. But with regards to x breeds I would rather someone pay £700 for a puppy than it be given away as they will assign more value to it.

I think the old fashioned heinz 57 mongrel I can remember from childhood is disappearing. And although the x breeds are still mongrels they are probably filling a gap in the market for families wanting a pet dog.

I remember when I was a kid if you had a dog at home it was probably a mongrel. It might a x breed of 2 or 3 breeds but it was more common to see a lurcher or a collie type cross than a pure breed.

Personally I would prefer a pedigree. Purely because I would rather spend my time and money on a known outcome. But x breeds do serve a purpose.

Your vet is wrong. Find a good breeder instead.