Male postnatal depression

[Foxysoxy01]

Just caught a bit of This Morning with my coffee and they are talking about male postnatal depression.

Now I understand it is a massive change to both parents with a new baby and can quite believe that it could cause stress and worry, even depression for the non birthing partner but why would it have to be postnatal depression which feels more female and is a term used for women who have given birth?

The thing I have an issue with (maybe I'm an unreasonable cynical cow) does it not seem another thing that men have to take away from women?
It feels a little bit like taking away a real horrible issue that women who have given birth sometimes face and making it all about men again and how very hard they have it.

My AIBU is I'm I being a real in empathetic bitch or is this just another case of men having to take over women's experiences and issues? Or is it just a word I'm getting hung up on and technically it is actually correct that they may have postnatal depression?

Postnatal definition 'Happening after and relating to the birth of a baby'

So in what way is it inaccurate to describe the depression a man may feel after the birth of his child ( when the depression is obviously linked to that event ) as postnatal depression. Why do some women feel that their experiences and feelings are more important than those of men? It really is bullshit. It takes 2 people to make a baby, 2 people (most of the time) to share the responsibility of looking after said baby - and if the above definition of postnatal is correct it is just as valid to describe the depression a man may feel as 'postnatal depression'.

However, the fact remains that it doesn't matter what we call it - we should all be more tolerant and understanding of the fact that both women and men can suffer depression, anxiety, a feeling of loss of control etc after the birth of a child.

The constant reference to the NHS guidelines reminds me of people who start essays, “the Oxford English Dictionary defines... as...” true but not useful or interesting.

Do we think hormones, birth trauma, physical changes and breastfeeding play a role in women’s experience of depression following the birth of a child? In many cases? Yes? Well we need a specific phrase for THAT experience. Postnatal depression seems apt.

Do men sometimes experience depression following the birth of a child? Is it clinically different to other situational depression (bereavement, divorce etc.) Probably not. So why call it PND?

Because women own their births. Men cannot give birth. They do not experience birth. They only know someone who has given birth (crude explanation but true).

‘Relating to the birth of a baby’ does not mean other people who didn’t give birth can be post-birth. Fathers are no more postnatal than grandmas are. The ‘relates to the birth of the baby’ part is the definition of the word, not a description of the person experiencing it.

When it goes in men’s medical records that they’ve given birth, then I might buy that they are ‘postnatal’. Thinking about it I think it’s bloody offensive to say that men are practically the same postnatally as women who’ve gone through the pain, fear, trauma and difficulty of labour and birth. That can piss right off.

The constant reference to the NHS...

Yes because people should listen/believe random nutcases strangers on the internet rather than the NHS guidelines

From someone who uses the phrase ‘nutcase’ on a thread about mental health.

Well I would say that men can also suffer from birth trauma, not going through it themselves of course, but from witnessing a traumatic birth - example, my own experience of giving birth to my children is pretty sketchy, I was in and out of consciousness ( can't remember much so can't say I'm traumatised ), my dh on the other hand has a severe phobia of hospitals, could not be in the same room when I was giving birth but unfortunately caught sight of doctors and midwives running in and out of my theatre in a state of panic - that traumatised him immeasurably and contributed to his depression.

Equally I feel that some of the 'PND' a woman will experience is 'situational' - I.e. Not caused by hormones, physical changes etc - but by sleep deprivation, loss of feeling of control, the reality of being a parent being different from the rose tinted version she had imagined.

I'm not downplaying the affects PND can have on a woman, but I'll be damned if I'm going to accept that it's something a man can't experience too. It isn't a bloody competition and the world would be a better place if we could all be a bit more accepting and understanding of each other's feelings.

I think the analogy that pops into mind is maybe a pertinent one. When a man goes to war a woman can suffer PTSD, can suffer from anxiety, depression, all sorts of serious and problematic symptoms.

She doesn’t have combat related PTSD. She doesn’t have Gulf War Syndrome. She doesn’t have shell shock or any one of the names it has been called. She does have serious, worthy of treatment mental health issues. Those are not the same as a veteran has. Because it didn’t have the same antecedents.

'From someone who uses the phrase
' nutcase' on a thread about mental health'

@UnbornMortificado

"Have we really just had postnatal depression mansplained to us?"

Ignoring the use of that horrible phrase and the fact that the NHS doesn't see PND as a sexed disease, men can still explain things about women.

The only woman involved when I had a hysterectomy was a female nurse. I didn't complain that the person explain what and why they would cut, dice and chop was a man. There was no "you don't own a vagina, why do you think you know more than me?"

I think you (and others) need a grip.

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

"That's got to be breaking talk guidelines surely MNHQ.
Isn't the above post, by someone so inconsequential that i cant be bothered to look up its name, breaking some sort of rule"

What, being a man with an opinion? Not bowing in deference uneducated opinion?

Being a man here is frowned upon but not yet a ban-able offence.

@CherryChasingDotMuncher

"Because women own their births."

They what?

CheetoLover, hopefully for most people, there is a massive difference between a male qualified in his field explaining a female issue and the opinion of an unqualified man on an Internet forum explaining womans issues.

PND isn't a women's issue.

and he's qualified

PND isn't a women's issue. and there is the problem, very clearly demonstrated. Post natal depression is now not a women's issue. How silly of women to think that it ever was.

Of course it's not a woman issue

Also Cheetolover, who are you referring to as qualified?

cheeto someone said men can be postnatal too because postnatal ‘relates’ to the birth of a baby. But it only relates of youve had a baby, if you’ve given birth. Men have no right to claim that they have experienced their partner’s birth. That is their birth and their birth alone.

I didn’t realise the man on This Morning was a doctor. How do you know that cheeto?

Cherry - I think that attitude is the problem here to be honest, the attitude that it is the 'woman's birth and her birth alone'. Did her partner not have a part in making the baby at all? Do you not think it is hard for a man to be stood looking on at it all happening and there's nothing he can do to help? Why should he be pushed out and it all become about the woman? I'm not diminishing the trauma a woman might experience giving birth, and it should be dealt with in a sympathetic way - but why should a man not be given the same sympathy if he is suffering too? Why must a woman feel the need to 'claim' PND as theirs? I just don't get it.

A massive problem I have with mumsnet is that there are too many people wanting to slag men off at every turn, and don't get me wrong, I whinge about my dh plenty, but I don't think men get a fair chance on here. Whether it is a thread like this, totally making out like men are worthless when it comes to birth and their feelings are less worthy than a woman's, or a ridiculous thread I read a few weeks ago about how ALL woman have been sexually abused by 'evil' men at some point in their life - erm, I haven't ( just another mumsnet excuse to have a go at all men ).

Maybe we should stop looking at each other as either men or women and start looking at ourselves as human beings, and have some compassion and sympathy for all people regardless of gender.

This thread (despite the unpleasantness) makes for interesting reading and almost changed my mind on the issue. I started out by thinking 'of course men can have postnatal depression' and that it's important for men to be able to use that term so that they can access help.

But actually maybe it would be more useful for men to have a different term than women as I think, medically, the causes for men are probably slightly different than for women (or at least, can be) and having a more precise/accurate term for the depression men suffer at that time doesn't seem like a bad thing.

However, as a person who suffered from pnd (and whose dh also suffered but didn't seek help and therefore was ill for longer) the one thing making me uncomfortable is this: my depression seems to have very little to do with my hormones and everything to do with the adjustments I was having to make in my life during maternity leave. Did I therefore not suffer from trueThey do a main food shop in the big towns and cities at the weekend or late on a Friday, and grab bits - like milk and bread, on their lunch hour in the week. It's really not that difficult to do! And it's not hard to function with a lot less shops open at the weekend. I know many places that do it!
postnatal depression? Was it rather adjustment disorder or parental depression or whatever you want to call it? Those terms do seem to fit better with what happened to me but I don't like the idea of having the pnd label taken away from me. Somehow I feel like the pnd label let me take myself seriously and access help in a way that I couldn't have done if we were calling it something different.

I do want the 'postnatal depression' label (strangely!) to helpe understand what happened to me and I do therefore understand why men should have a recognised label to help them deal with their illness.

In the long term I think it might be better if men had a different label to use, but right now I don't think the terms 'adjustment disorder' or 'parental depression' convey the necessary meaning.

Someone else's post (not mine?!) seems to have appeared in the middle of my post! Weird - not sure what happened there!

Do you not think it is hard for a man to be stood looking on at it all happening and there's nothing he can do to help? Why should he be pushed out and it all become about the woman? I'm not diminishing the trauma a woman might experience giving birth, and it should be dealt with in a sympathetic way - but why should a man not be given the same sympathy if he is suffering too?

I am sure many births must be quite traumatic to watch. However, not every birth partner will be a DH or DP. Could a mum or sister then say they are suffering from PND? It may of be their baby but it will be their DGC or DN!

It's good to read the thoughtful comments on here when they arrive. To the pp who queried her diagnosis - all mothers are different. Some (like me) experience horrifying hormone driven post partum (post natal) illness, some get mild symptoms, some none. It's similar to PMS/PMDD and the menopause - some suffer, some don't.
Anyone who is not well after giving birth may suffer from the hormone driven element and also from a situational component - feel lonely, find it difficult to breastfeed, feel constrained by new role, find it difficult to cope with crying baby and lack of sleep. The combination of both may be devastating and can also have an effect on the father/partner/ husband, who may well be put in a very difficult situation, suffering from their own anxieties about adjusting to their changed role and feelings of helplessness with regard to the mother's predicament. Each should be helped in an appropriate manner. For the mother this may involve hormone therapy as well.
I am saddened by so many posts that seem to deny the biological reality of the effects childbirth can have on women, though.

A massive problem I have with mumsnet is that there are too many people wanting to slag men off at every turn, and don't get me wrong, I whinge about my dh plenty, but I don't think men get a fair chance on here. Whether it is a thread like this, totally making out like men are worthless when it comes to birth and their feelings are less worthy than a woman's

Rubbish. No one here has said men's feelings are less worthy than women's when it comes to birth and their MH.

I am very passionate about MH. I have a husband with schizophrenia and I have never once thought that men's feelings are less worthy and I don't think anyone else here does either.

Just because some posters don't agree with calling male depression after their wife has given birth PND does not mean they think their depression is less important than a woman's. It's just different. They still need support, help and understanding, but we don't have to call it PND.

We do need more understanding that men often suffer with depression after they have had a child and we definitely need to take that more seriously, but we do not have to say they have PND to achieve that. It's not less 'deserving', or less serious. It is just different.

My husband's depression also intensified when I was pregnant due to me having hypermesis and life just being completely shit at that point. I had ante-natal depression. He had depression. Both serious and both of us needed support and help.

If all you have taken from this thread is that women think men's feelings don't matter when it comes to depression then that says a lot about you and your negative views about the women posting here.

Being a man here is frowned upon but not yet a ban-able offence.

Just as well i wasnt calling for a ban then wasnt it

totally making out like men are worthless when it comes to birth and their feelings are less worthy than a woman'

There have not been many posts at all saying this

The vast majority say that men can suffer following the birth of the baby and how can changing the name help this