To ask how having children affected your career?

[Fluffysparks]

Just that really. Were you employed before having the DC, how much time did you take out and do you think it affected your career? I’ve just realised that it probably has with me, in more ways than one, and I’ve been quite lucky as well...

*ShowMeMySilverLining

A question for those who have made it work going back and continuing to progress, or have retrained in a job that works, could you say which field you are in?*

I continued to progress after returning to work, I work in Construction.

Academia. Stellar progress after have DS including promotion multiple new rants and high impact publications and couple fab books.

Grants

I agree that compulsory measures aren’t the right way; ultimately we don’t want to live in a nanny state and couples should have the freedom to decide how they want to carve things up between them. But it’s very difficult to strike the right balance between ‘forcing’ people and encouraging them to shift their thinking and practice.

I also think honeylulu makes some very valid points. Some women don’t seem to want things on a more equal footing - eg the take up of shared parental leave is depressingly low. It may be in some cases financially less beneficial for the father to take some of the leave, but I personally know of several women who’ve said no way am I handing over some of my maternity leave. The onus is on the woman to transfer it, and if she’s unwilling, the father can’t do anything about it.

I also see among a number of women in my peer group (over 50 with children all grown up and left home) who are very resistant to working full time; they’ve stayed on 3 or 4 days ever since returning to work, and in some cases guard their part time hours quite ferociously, claiming they need it for their work life balance and couldn’t entertain the prospect of full time hours again. Which is absolutely fine if their partner is happy with that balance and it’s affordable, BUT it’s no good then complaining that the prospects which can only come with some full time roles aren’t coming their way. Some jobs carve up easily part time, but some don’t, particularly in fast paced environments where you’re managing a team etc

I think self honesty is key here. If you don’t want the commitment and expectations which come with a full time career then you can’t really complain about not getting the salary, pension and other aspects which come with it- and that would be equally true of any man who decides to work part time long term, or take extended time out of the workplace.

I do quite a bit of recruitment these days, and make a point of supporting women back into the workplace wherever possible - I’ve come across so many women who have a lot to give and can be so valuable in the workforce. But ultimately, in the workplace you want the best person for the job, and if anyone (male or female) puts too many restrictions around what they can offer then of course they’re putting themself at a disadvantage

Anatidae - the Scandinavian model is a good example. But as well as the legal framework there is a clear cultural difference that is harder to mandate.

One Danish (but long term resident in England) friend described it as:
"In England I'm frowned at for leaving by 4.30pm to pick up my kids. In Denmark I'm frowned at if I'm still in the office at 4.30pm and not picking up my kids".

Childcare is still seen as pre-dominantly women's work. We're fed the myth that women are just better at it. More nurturing. More caring.

Hence the underpaid/over worked caring professions are left to women.

It definately had an impact as I didn't have my son until I was 30, putting on hold a career that was on the up. I probably should have moved companies and carried on up the career ladder but going on maternity leave I stuck with where I was (and still am). I was off for 6 months and didn't really throw myself fully back into things for about 3 years. As a result I was now 4 years behind my peers. Getting there now.

Ime the decisions made around work and children have numerous external reasons and pressures put upon them that have effected their outcomes. There’s an undercurrent of women are selfish, lazy and deluded if they think they can go part time and still have career prospects, a pension, an unresentful husband etc. in some posts, which is not my experience of the hard working, intelligent and exasperated women I know. Women that want careers, earning power, future financial security etc and are having to find their own way because the traditional doors have been closed to them due to bearing children.

There are so many barriers to women being able to participate fully in the workplace already, maybe other women can view the decisions women make around children and work either through choice or circumstance with compassion.

n England I'm frowned at for leaving by 4.30pm to pick up my kids. In Denmark I'm frowned at if I'm still in the office at 4.30pm and not picking up my kids

That is absolutely true (I live in Sweden) - the problem I have is i work for a multinational who expect American work styles and either don’t understand, or more likely, don’t care, about local laws and regulations and culture.

It’s he single biggest stress in my life, because nursery shuts at five - why would your employer keep you longer? And employer are all ‘only until five? Wtf get a nanny.’ Then you explain that the system isn’t like that here and they dgaf. And you go around in circles trying to please everyone.

Having children pretty much killed my career for a number of reasons! Before DD1 I had just been promoted and was doing a job I enjoyed. I took 10 months mat leave and decided I only wanted to go back PT. The job I had before wasn't going to work as PT so I went to another department doing basic admin etc. Due to pretty bad PND, PTSD from the birth etc etc work wasn't my priority so my career became just a job. I had another DD 5 years later, took the max mat leave and went back to my job. Pays quite well for what it is and has good benefits, pension etc but it's just a dead end job with no prospect of promotion because I don't ever want to go FT and that would be the only way to get a promotion. Both children at school now but I have no desire to increase my hours. I'm quite lazy I suppose and I like having time to myself. Also I need to look after my mental health and I don't think FT working would help with that.
Also we're lucky that we don't need the money.

There's a culture of presenteeism that harks back to the 1950s that the UK can't seem to shake.

Yes there are jobs where you need to be physically there at a certain time. But there are also lots and lots of jobs that can sometimes facilitate leaving at 4.30pm and logging back on to finish work post kids bedtime.
Too many employers are reluctant to give leeway though and there's an air of mistrust that leaves employees demotivated and everyone resentful.

Its not that parents are demanding they be allowed to work flexibly in £250k banking jobs. Many, many women I know are in middling £50-60k professional jobs, which they've chosen to avoid business travel, in which they've accepted a degree of career stagnation - and yet they're still being tutted for trying to make a 6pm nursery finish.

It sucks.

I don’t think it’s about any undercurrents- I think it’s fairly self explanatory that if you decide to work part time (for any reason, whether it’s parenting, to pursue a hobby, or simply because you don’t want the pressure/hours/expectations of full time) then presumably you’re doing it for some trade off. You weigh up the impact of giving up a full time role against what you personally want to gain from your decision.

That’s why I said it’s about self honesty. Part time hours will definitely affect ones income and pension, and in some fields will affect your prospects, and that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong or unfair- it’s simply the case that you’re limiting what you can offer to the employer.

FWIW I am planning to take early retirement and will no doubt work part time while drawing my pension- so no personal axe to grind here. I’m in my 50s, I’ve reached the level I want in my career and the trade off for taking on a role lower down the ladder if I go part time will be the extra time I gain to pursue hobbies etc. I’m very aware though that I wouldn’t have been able to get to where I wanted career wise if I hadn’t returned full time many years ago. That would be true for any man too

Gone kind of sideways.

I had already stepped back from a high pressure (and high earning) career before I had children because it made me miserable.

Went back part time after DC1 but that job had kind of run its course. Due to DH's job relocation I was SAHM for nearly 3 years.

About to start a research position/funded PhD which is same salary as I was earning 6 years ago... But I'm happy. I feel like it's a runway to further career growth.

I could have been a six figure earner if I'd stayed in my original career, but frankly then I might not have had DC to worry about as DH and I agree we probably would have divorced due to the pressure/how badly it affected my personality

Work expectations in the UK are an enormous part of the problem.

How much more manageable would juggling work and motherhood be if there was pressure on employers to keep expectations within 9-5 (or 8-4 or whatever).

I have a Norwegian friend and this is exactly what they have. Almost all mothers go back to work full time there, there's none of this angst, high quality nursery provision is subsidised.

We have it all wrong.

Before my first baby, my husband and I were at the same managerial level and earning identical salaries, with a very similar previous career trajectory. 5 years and 2 children on, (3rd due imminently) his earnings have increased by 2.5 and he is now a senior director. I am still a project manager, part time, earning identically to where I started - says it all!

Or it says that you got loads more time with your children that he missed out on.

I would say me and DH are just about hanging on in there with our careers but we're exhausted despite having family help & a cleaner.
I've already cut my hours a bit, which helps and I'm lucky in that I still work for the same company as before DC's so had already built a good reputation.

There is no way I can put in extra hours now or try to get a promotion. My DH won't cut back on hours, although he does do sick days and morning drop offs.

I don't know how much longer we can continue or if it will get easier.

I think my OH has missed out.

Because of work travel and him having to give 110^ to work, weeks would go by when he hardly saw the kids at all.
I developed a much closer bond to them than he did.

I actually feel he got the short straw.
In my time as a SAHM I had the time and financial freedom to work out ways of earning money from home.

A luxury I would not have had if I was working full time.

And now, 19 years down the line, I am still at home working part time hours and earning 30% more than my OH.

THe whole set up has suited me very well.

And that’s why hardline mandatory policies forcing people to have shared parental leave etc, won’t work .... couples need to decide for themselves a set up which suits the whole family best.

For us, one important thing we wanted for our children was to have a close bond with us both. Dh wouldn’t have wanted a job which took him off traveling extensively at the expense of time with the children, and neither did I. Apart from the fact that we as the parents would miss out, I felt our children would too. So it’s worked for us to both have good, interesting, but manageable careers rather than one of us being sole provider and having to have a lifestyle which wasn’t family friendly, and the other giving up work totally.

Horses for courses

Babbitywabbit I agree.

While I agree society is fucked the last thing we need is more restriction on freedom.

OH and did not want our children to go to nursery or childminder, and with no family help, that meant that one of us had to stay home.
Two part time jobs rarely earn as much as a full time job.

Serious careers are very rarely built around part time work.

Also we decided that I had better skills to be the primary caregiver.

It is self- perpetuating though. Even if you start off from the same place : Being part time = earning less, earning less = not the main bread winner=being the one who does pick-up/drop =seen as less committed= passed over for promotion/opportunities.
A colleague of mine has a daughter about to return to work after Mat leave, the little one wasn't well the other day. I suggested I thought fairly mildly that as she had just had 12 months Mat leave perhaps Dad should pick up the slack on this occasion (and for the next 6 weeks to allow the mother to get her feet back under the table) it was met with utter disbelief. This IMO is where the rot starts.

Stillwishihadabs you may see this as the " rot starting", but many employers don't take kindly to staff taking time off for sick kids.
My OH works in a company where the only staff are admin.
If he tried to take time off to pick up kids etc, he would be the first out the door.

Of course that's not right, but I'm not going to sacrifice the chance of a happy family to fight the system.

As I said- it worked for us, making the best of a messed up world.

This thread is very sad.

My career has been fine and indeed has really taken off in recent years.

But that's because my DC are older and my DH completely changed his working life/hours to support me and spend more time with DC.
So it's been win win. Especially now my DC have gone to university.

@speakout “many companies don’t take kindly to staff having to take time off for sick kids” yeah that’s the whole point!!! Facepalm

susannahmoodie. No need to facepalm.

I completely understand the situation.

It's not up to me to fix when I can easier work around it.

Today 18:33 Stillwishihadabs

‘This IMO is where the rot starts’

Yes- it’s an interesting (if depressing) subject, where those messages start, the societal pressures.

It’s fascinating working in the field of education as I do, seeing bright, aspirational 18 year olds in front of me, with both girls and boys performing well (in fact girls outperforming boys in many areas) planning their higher education and careers.... and the boys usually have a caring and nurturing side just as much as the girls. I wonder at what point so many begin to start believing they should pigeonhole themselves into ‘provider’ of ‘carer.’

It's not up to me to fix when I can easier work around it.

Change is always a function of both structure and agency, so there is little point in finger-pointing. But that is a demoralising sentence if I ever heard one.