Surestart sexism

[LeCroissant]

I just got this sent to me by email from Surestart (identifying details blocked out).

When I was at surestart with my kids, a few years ago now, most sessions were, of course, attended by women. Chairs were deliberately kept sparse in order to force mothers to stand up and play with their children. No hot drinks were allowed. No unhealthy food was allowed. At all times we were to demonstrate what good parents we were by never taking our eyes off the children, no matter how tired we were. I once had to go home from the local surestart centre because the two chairs that were available were taken I had nowhere to sit to feed my newborn.

And yet, for the men's session (run at the weekend of course, because we know that men work during the week and women don't) there's coffee, bacon sandwiches and fucking newspapers!!! AIBU to think this is fucking ridiculous?

Wrt trying to reach fathers- this particular surestart has struggled to attract mums, but at no point have they ever offered women bacon sandwiches and coffee.

YADNBU.

The bribery to attend is bad enough, but then to actively set different standards of participation once the men are there is unforgivable.

The only way this could be an acceptable form of postive discrimination (like bursaries for women in science) is if the men were bribed with bacon sandwiches to attend (which is grr in itself) but with the aim of encouraging them to achieve the exact same standards of participation and parenting that women are expected to achieve. ie if women don't get chairs ot encourage active participation, then no one gets chairs. (never mind that what thet does for parents who are ill or tired.)

No women gets a bursary for science etc, where they are then given different (lower) standards to meet then men. Can you imagine this scenario? A woman gets a bursary then is excused from doing anything dirty or smelly with chemicals (a sexist assumption that women will dislike this), then is able to fail to meet the prodcutivity requirments their male colleagues have to meet (because we are all simply glad that a woman has shown an interest in sceince), AND gets free nail varnish just for showing up to work! It would never happen, and it shouldn't!

I agree! We had one that was on a Saturday. I fucking work. I could never go to any of the mid week groups but was excluded from the weekend ones! And every time I did go to a group in the week on mat leave, I could have murdered a fucking coffee, but all there was was water and bloody celery sticks.

I'm glad I never made it to surestart, no hot drinks is nuts. We had hot drinks at other toddler groups and managed.

OP check out your local church groups, I go to one with DS, have done since he was born, they have loads of toys, a bouncy castle, feed the kids lunch, you get hot drinks and a slice of cake and it’s only £1! And there’s chairs 😁They’re very lovely people running it as well rather than super-mums who get anal about sitting on the floor

We do supply enough chairs for everyone when space allows. We use child height adult chairs and make it clear that "proper" chairs are available if someone would prefer one.

I completely agree with a pp who said that the same standards of participation should be expected from dads, and it saddens me that the deal has to be "sweetened".

In one particular hard to reach area of our catchment we offered massages and facials to mums who attend, so it does swing both ways.

WRT to hot drinks it is ridiculous, and in some ways disempowering for parents. But we have been sued many times for children having various minor falls and bumps. We are now extra careful about H&S. though staff haven't been banned from tea drinking on their breaks (yet).

I think it's unfair to reduce a group to "water and celery sticks". The staff in our setting work hard to engage parents, provide an acceptable snack within strict guidelines, and provide interesting activities.

It is clear from this thread that they often get it wrong, but our Sure Start provides antenatal support, breastfeeding support, baby massage, cookery lessons, photography lessons, emergency childcare, exercise classes, toddler groups, music therapy, SLT, support for children with additional needs, and much more. All for free.

We are doing out best.

That's interesting aVastbehind (about the Saturday group where you live) - there is evidently an un-met need for Saturday groups open to working mums as well as working dads, which is what I thought. It does seem that (some) men, while willing to attend a men-only group, are not interested in a mixed group. DH claims 'no-one would talk to him' at the mixed groups, however, I am dubious that anyone was excluding him as i) he's not good at starting conversations and ii) I have been to groups where no-one talked to me either. He did go regularly, however - it was a church group as described by a PP with lovely friendly organisers who did talk to him and still say hello to us when we see them.

Offering massages and facials is sexist too - I have no desire to have a random person put stuff on my face. It would actually put me right off.

The emphasis should be on being friendly and open to all. Sticking to stereotypes might work for a business offering a niche product or service, but family services should aim to embrace everyone and accept that people can be very different but have being parents in common.

Or the single mums are being used as bacon.

OP YANBU at all. Quite apart from all the perks for men there is the simple fact that working women are completely overlooked. I find they mostly are when children are under 10. School events in the middle of the day, vital information not emailed out but written on boards at the classroom door as though every parent will see it there...

I'm no great fan of facials either, but it came about from focus groups that were held. It was a big draw and parents talked wistfully about it for months.

Ideally the 'bribes' wouldn't be necessary but we do what we can to attract hard to reach families. If that is facials and massages (by qualified beauty therapists) then so be it.

I gave up on the children’s centre when I went back to work. The only Saturday session was men only and, strangely enough, my 10 month old didn’t want to spend any time away from me for father-son bonding on a day I was at home.

I think that some of the issue is that the groups are targetted at such specific audiences. I think Male Carer groups can be a good thing if they as previously stated have the same aims and expectations as the women's groups. What is missing is an open weekend group for all, there are a myriad of reasons that someone might not be able to access a weekday group but still need support and friendship.

Whilst a lot of organisations are realising there is a call for weekend groups (Baby Sensory type things, paid for sometimes expensive..) the support systems are missing it. There is almost a feeling that if you work all week you don't need help or don't deserve it. A lot of the poorest in society are those that work. Or those that are caring for a sibling all week and therefore can't access a weekday group or don't have transport during the week but do at the weekend...

Focused support isn't necessarily a negative thing, but having different standards for what is expected and forgetting that everyone needs accessible support is.

Totally agree fridgecut

To me what comes from this thread, is that real need for support, and small acts of kindness like being made a hot drink, and 15 minutes away from the kids would work wonders for most people, and give a sense of necessary respite.

The after that parents can get back to all the 'active parenting' for the rest of the session (and probably the rest of the day!) I'm sure that could be achieved with a little thought and less expense than providing beauty therapists.

You can combine setting a good example to parents who need this kind of extra help, with simple activities that smack less of parents feeling like they have to 'perform' once they get to the group.

'Child height adult chairs' aVast? So chairs that adults can't sit on or breastfeed on comfortably? Why not provide actual chairs, without exhausted parents having to ask for them?

Sorry but where has anyone said the same centre currently does not offer chairs or drinks to women? They haven't. So stop making up stuff to fit your narrative.

@MancLife the OP said it in her very first post. It's right there, at the top of every page.

MancLife said "currently", the OP originally said "a few years ago."

(Though OP later said that she would know if it had changed since she went. So she has said it, but not in the OP "at the top of every page.")

Bacon obviously going to draw in all the Jewish and Muslim father then.... (not)....
So not only sexist but pretty discriminating in other ways.

Regarding the child height chairs, we have them to encourage parental interaction whilst still being comfortable for the parents.

The staff at the group are not watching everyone to ensure they are constantly "parenting" their children and are not disapproving or judgemental. They are friendly, warm, dedicated and empathetic. They are perfectly capable of seeing if parent is stressed or struggling. Parents are not expected to come cap in hand to ask for a chair. Breastfeeding mothers are always asked how we can make things more comfortable for them, and we will look after any siblings if necessary. Often they prefer to breastfeed lounging on the bean bags. Whatever works for them.

I appreciate that not all centres are run perfectly or some not even adequately but I don't think our chair policy is a problem for us. A dozen or more adult sized chairs in the room would be.

I swear if this happened at my surestart centre I would be identifying as a bloke and going for the butties. Fuck tea and biscuits (our centre says no food fullstop though, not even bloody biscuits you bring yourself )

Though, at the same time, its a good idea to be encouraging more blokes to be doing stuff like this.

A chunk of the sure Start funding is dependent on attracting 'difficult to engage' groups who are deemed to be in most need.

At my children's centre they have some general open to all playgroups/ sessions which are very popular. Families arriving late are often turned away as they are full. At a nearby centre they have an open to all Saturday playgroup which is always full. They don't offer anything special like coffee, you just go along and play with your kids.

They also offer a number of groups targeted at particular hard to engage groups. These often have various incentives. Eg one targeted at mums under 25 had staff to play with your kids whilst you ate a free lunch and chatted to the other mums! Other targeted sessions are dads at the weekend, English second language, referrals from health visitor for groups with staff to play with your kids whilst you relax or take a class.

Although these special groups have incentives they are poorly attended.

In honesty it does frustrate me. I can see the rationale to use the money where it makes most difference. But if the targeted groups aren't actually attending then it won't make a difference!

I feel that maybe having more general sessions and increasing the capacity for general sessions would be helpful, and families identified as being in need could perhaps get extra encouragement to attend these general sessions, eg a priority entry if it is full, staff to help with their kids. It is frustrating to have families turned away from one session and other sessions that are poorly attended.

Although the funding structure is such that if the targeted groups don't come then they will lose the funding, so I understand why sure start runs it this way.

Incidentally I don't mind having no coffee as I see so many near misses with parents leaving hot coffee unattended and babies almost getting scalded.

And my children's centre doesn't have many chairs for parents, there isn't space tbh, but when I've wanted to breastfeed sitting down the staff have asked someone to vacate a chair for me or got a spare chair. Sounds like some centres are less helpful, but mine is fine on this front.

In other playgroups which have lots of chairs there are always a group of mums sitting talking through the whole session ignoring their kids who are running amok snatching toys, hogging toys, pushing. There's definitely a place for having a break but I can see that isn't the aim of sure start unless you are in a group they are paid to attract, in which case please enjoy your facial! .

I don't know any adult who finds child-height chars comfortable aVast. Why not treat parents like actual adults?

Why would anyone attend a Surestart group like the one the OP describes? No chairs, drinks or snacks? No way I'd go. Or so you get a grant or something for going?

My church runs a parent and toddlers group. They provide proper cafetiere coffee, tea, scones for adults and toast and juice for the children. There is a baby section and a toddler section and a communal area, all in the main hall. It finishes with a rhyme and music time led by a leader. There are chairs lining the four walls for adults.

It is hugely popular. And it is also free.

Why would anyone attend a Surestart group like the one the OP describes

I went to all of ours. I was desperate. Twins, had recently moved to the area and didn't have any family support. I went to a church group too but that was only one morning a week and I had five long, long mornings to pass.

I used to go. I wasn't bothered about chairs because I wanted to play and read with my child so was happy to get down on the floor. I went to get out of the house and speak to other mums and so that my kids could socialise. The church group by us charged £2 per child and you had to pay extra for tea and toast.