Surestart sexism

[LeCroissant]

I just got this sent to me by email from Surestart (identifying details blocked out).

When I was at surestart with my kids, a few years ago now, most sessions were, of course, attended by women. Chairs were deliberately kept sparse in order to force mothers to stand up and play with their children. No hot drinks were allowed. No unhealthy food was allowed. At all times we were to demonstrate what good parents we were by never taking our eyes off the children, no matter how tired we were. I once had to go home from the local surestart centre because the two chairs that were available were taken I had nowhere to sit to feed my newborn.

And yet, for the men's session (run at the weekend of course, because we know that men work during the week and women don't) there's coffee, bacon sandwiches and fucking newspapers!!! AIBU to think this is fucking ridiculous?

witsender

Thats a point, there may well have been dads there for their wives, but they weren't in the room

I havent read all of the thread but... fathers, actually males in general are a very difficult to reach group in terms of engagement and yet its not just mothers who need support and encouragement when they become new parents. Most services are rightly geared towards mothers and as some of the comments show.... should remain exclusively female only spaces however - there IS a need for men to engage with both statutory services and each other. How should this be done? When you talk to fathers and ask them "what would encourage you to join in?" the answers are particularly interesting. Why shouldnt there be a session targetted at men? Do they not have an equally essential role in a childs upbringing as women or have I got that wrong?

Of course there should be sessions targeted at men

I dont think anyone is saying it shouldnt be...just how its targetted

I didn’t think my posts were long enough to qualify as mansplaining. But heyho I do try to be succinct and often surpass myself.

I was actually surprised this thread was still going when it popped up on my watching list but bf is a worthy derail. Dd was 4 weeks at the time Rebecca and I attended twice. Dd is now 13m I’ve been going to their other sessions for a little over 1 year now, my local surestarts are run by a children’s charity and they do a great job. FWIW I have left the room before (always voluntarily), a few times at the sensory play sessions and at some of the other baby play sessions for dc. I was allowed to have a coffee in the staff room and their staff supervised my dd if dw wasn’t there. I should have demanded bacon

“I was actually surprised this thread was still going”

Haha are you new to MN? This is by no means long-running!

Is the short answer. I said before that I needed to be there. And some fathers might want to be there. Both are valid reasons imo. Thankfully the health professionals facilitating the sessions aren’t regressive in their thinking

The health professionals are not the ones talking about personal things nor are they the ones possibly removing items of clothing and they are not the ones who may be distressed.

They are also not allowed to ask if a breast feeding mother has a problem with a none breast feeding man being there nor are they allowed to indicate it may be an issue in any way shape or form EVEN if they know it is

Lest some bloke like you starts insisting his wish to attend is the same as a women needing support and if prevented wahhhhh he has been discriminated against.

All they are allowed to do is sit and watch whilst woman who are normally talkative and open clam up or leave or just don’t come back to the group despite them previously expressing a need or wish to sometimes we even get HV ring us up on behalf of the same women asking if we can provide 1-1 support for that women which we can’t as we only have the groups and we actually get told the reason they can’t attend is due to the men.

But bravo on being so utterly selfish and so compleatly ridiculous that you cannot even perceive it could be an issue and believing that your personal need to obtain breast feeding support is greater than the need of someone who is actually lactating.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 ~ as I said, talking to men about what would encourage them to attend a group session, even once was eye opening... how do you know that the center hasnt done extensive reasearch on where the engagement should be targeted/advertised?

I'm pretty sure you know that being verbose is not a prerequisite for mansplaining.

Oh and fwiw I have no problem at all with groups aimed at men.

I think they are a great idea and should be done BUT we shouldn’t have lower expectations of dad’s and parenting than we do of mums, if the mums are not allowed to have hot food and drinks then the dads shouldn’t either.
If the mums are not allowed to sit and read newspapers during groups then neither should the dads.

I have worked in and around children’s centers as part of my job since the days when they were part of the action for children (so 25 years) as well as being a peer supporter I’ve run domestic abuse drop ins and utilised rooms there for meetings and the such like and I’ve seen a mother given a hot drink in the staff area once whilst her child was supervised by staff, the rest are expected to take take their kids with them even using the loo. And even then after a concern was recorded with social services immediately after despite the request being made by her social worker who was at the centre.
I also think mothers should be excluded from dads groups and dads excluded from breast feeding groups

I haven't read the whole thread but our Sure Start Centre runs Dad's sessions. Brilliant so they should. They run sessions during the week anyone can come too and Dad's club at the weekend too with a BBQ or bacon butties as above.

BUT they also run fantastic free science sessions in block weeks every year, you know the volcano exploding whizz bang, make gloom, engineering type science.for DADS and LADS every single time. No alternative for girls or Mums. Nothing even similar.

I understand that it's about funding but it boils my piss that it's only the science one ever that's boys only.

Oh I absolutely agree normal

But then having attracted the men i can quite see why women might be pissed off

Actually you could say men have historically been disadvantaged if they wanted to be stay at home parents. Only recently men have been able to use the maternity leave so dad taking a year off was financially impossible for many families. how many actually wanted to be sahds is questionable though

I don't see this as any different than female only bursaries for STEM subjects etc.

The treatment of parents at the mid week ones is patronising and should be challenged though. We managed with a cup of tea at the toddler groups I went to without any dangerous incidents. We also managed to play with the children even if chairs were available . We also chatted to each other, flicked through a magazine etc and had a little break whilst the little ones were occupied, it was assumed that you played with the kids at home so enforced play wasn't necessary.

Toddler groups used to be about the kids socialising and the parents getting out of the house and meeting other adults. Now it sounds like a way for your parenting to be assessed.

And again i agree thesecknd

It wasnt sure start but i attended 3 baby groups, all offered tea and coffee and it was more a chance for mums to chat and relax a bit rather than enforced play

Lest some bloke like you starts insisting his wish to attend is the same as a women needing support and if prevented wahhhhh he has been discriminated against.

I think YOU have far far far more in common with that imaginary bloke than I do sock. Horseshoe theory applies here.

Haha newdaddie is the gift that keeps on giving :D

I said before that I needed to be there. And some fathers might want to be there. Both are valid reasons imo. Thankfully the health professionals facilitating

This really is just the epitome of male entitlement isn’t it? I should be in a group designed for women because I want to be there?

You did not need to be there. Unless you have lactating breasts, which I’m guessing you don’t

Depends on the centre. The one I ran my latch on at wouldn’t allow hot drinks and you couldn’t dispose of nappies there!

The one I work with now has regular tea and toast drop ins to encourage parents to engage.

Iirc the dad groups were run by volunteers sort of separately. If they have secured funds to do that extra stuff I’m really impressed. The ones here are aimed at v hard to teach disenfranchised dads

We were told to attend, dw didn’t just decide to rock up one week with ‘a bloke’ in tow and get her breasts out for a pow wow with the girls.

I’m a husband and father. Our BF workshop is an NHS session, we had a referral, we got support for bf both for dw and my role. We could’ve insisted on a home visit but we would’ve had to wait longer and we were both encouraged to attend the group session.* Our area does run female only sessions, obviously the ones I attended weren’t.*

Newdaddie is so special.

I ran my latch on group for long time. I think in all that time we had one bloke attend and that was to support his partner to attend and he didn’t stay.

I might start doing a group again at some point. I’m not tolerating blokes insisting they attend. Fgs.

Meanwhile most of sure start work is targeted now on vulnerable families. Universal uptake made call me Dave reallly cross so he did his best to squash that.

My husband has come along with me to an NHS referred BF clinic too, even counsellors need help sometimes. But he stayed outside the main room out of respect to the other attendees, without even considering entering. It would be massively overstating his role to assume that it was anything more than a marginal support one. As a fairly bright chap he was able to absorb what I told him, and what the counsellor told him when she popped out as we left. I was the important one, and our child. Much like the other breastfeeding pairs.

Unless the father is supremely unsupportive and refusing to listen to the mother there is rarely a need for them to be present in this instance. I have often counselled both parents, but normally only when the mother feels that the father needs to hear the information from a professional instead of her. In other words, he's a bit of an arse.

I think YOU have far far far more in common with that imaginary bloke than I do sock. Horseshoe theory applies here

Not quite, you have a penis and I have lactating breasts.

The bloke isn’t imaginary because it’s what you did.

Wits - exactly

I didn’t know someone who isn’t a patient and doesn’t have breasts could be referred for breastfeeding support. Is it on your medical record newdaddie?

You weren’t referred, your wife was and it’s expected you support her. For the sake of women everywhere please stop going to sit in BF clinics, they are for women and I can assure you they don’t want you there