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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
whiskyowl · 18/10/2017 10:31

derxa - NO IT FUCKING ISN'T. My God, read my fucking post woman - the whole point is that this clearly doesn't happen to every woman, but for those who are serial sufferers it is difficult to comprehend.

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 10:35

That's very close to saying you don't believe them

Derxa did you read the rest of that post? It's quite clear the OP was saying it's a stretch because she's been assualted so many times, and has encountered so many predatory men, that the concept of NEVER encountering one is pretty alien to her. Why are you trying to minimise and shut down? Why would that be the one point of her post that you pick up on?

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 10:36

"Assuming a poster is an MRA troll can be a pretty good way of silencing a woman's voice, and getting her opinions dismissed."

This. I've been accused of being a man a few times too.

Melony6 · 18/10/2017 10:41

I coul be branded ageist as well as sexist here but I post on the comments to articles in the Times quite often and the general consensus on threads about women in the workplace, or similar. are really ignorant and sexist, but these comments get to the top because they receive so many ‘Recommends’. I was shocked and disappointed at first but I think that you have to think who has the time to spend posting stuff. So I think older retired men whose attitudes are from the 1950s/60s. Some women post too. Aattitude s are equally antitransgender on those threads.
They are not the average person . It’s a bit like who phones in on Any Answers on Radio 4 - a very narrow subsection of the pop.

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 10:42

Krytens I haven't read that thread but I would imagine that woman felt threatened by that man because she too has encountered unwanted attention from men in the past and she was scared and didn't know what he was going to do to her. That's the reality for a lot of women. Can you honestly not see that?

BeyondNoone · 18/10/2017 10:42

"for those who are serial sufferers it is difficult to comprehend"

Yy. Also it makes me (as a serial sufferer) wonder why I had to be so unlucky. It - logically unreasonably - makes me wonder if maybe I did do something to deserve it after all.

And, as I said, in my experience women who say they haven't been harassed aren't including "that time that... [whatever]". Perhaps it didn't particularly bother them, so they feel it's not like all of those other "real examples of harassment"

BeyondNoone · 18/10/2017 10:45

(That seems to be a common theme on the #metoo threads btw - women who feel their minor experience devalues major assaults,so they don't feel they should "join in")

BishBoshBashBop · 18/10/2017 10:46

This thread is kind of proving the OPs point in many ways.

BeyondNoone · 18/10/2017 10:47

Wondering aloud, if the #mentoo hashtag took off with the same popularity, how many men do you think would worry about whether their minor incident "counted"...?

KrytensNanobots · 18/10/2017 10:48

I haven't read that thread but I would imagine that woman felt threatened by that man because she too has encountered unwanted attention from men in the past and she was scared and didn't know what he was going to do to her.

You can't just spray someone running past "just in case they attack you first."
That makes you the attacker and them the victim.

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 10:51

On the 'most men are creeps' thread, one poster was told she was 'too stupid to be here'. Who needs men to put women down when you've got women like that? Hmm

derxa · 18/10/2017 10:51

but for those who are serial sufferers it is difficult to comprehend.
Yes I can totally understand that. If you have had many bad experiences then you find it difficult to believe that it's not the norm for all women.

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 10:51

You can't just spray someone running past "just in case they attack you first."

But you CAN say 'the man should have been more aware of his position of power and handled it better'

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 10:57

bumbley did you honestly just 'women are just as bad as men' on a thread about posters being disingenuous to shoot down discussions about male harassment?

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 10:58

bumbley sorry, I worded that very badly. Do you see any of yourself in the OP?

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 10:58

"But you CAN say 'the man should have been more aware of his position of power and handled it better'"

See, I would disagree with this. That man wasn't running along thinking about his 'position of power' - he was just out for a run and probably wasn't even thinking that running past someone was going to freak them out when he'd probably run past hundreds of people over time.

People on here complain about men apparently always subconsciously thinking they are somehow superior and/or that women are weaker/need to be protected and then complain when a man isn't thinking that when he's out for a run and just overtakes a woman as he would overtake anyone else.

Telstar99 · 18/10/2017 11:01

@Pumperthepumper

I find it so frustrating when we're talking about women's issues (i.e. Street harassment) and you have a huge heap of posters saying 'women do it too' 'not all men..' 'My husband is a nice man, he'd never do that' - as if it's in any way relevant to the fact that the vast majority of sexually related, and violence related, crimes are committed by men.

So, it is the problem of ALL MEN. Yes all men. Men are in the position to stop it happening, it's time to take responsibility for mankind and sort it out. Listen to women when we say we don't like it. Teach your sons to respect women. Stop the groping and the lewd conversation about your coworkers, pull your friends up for being disrespectful about women (even if the women can't hear him). Stop shutting down conversations with NAM, stop minimising by saying 'women do it too'.

This ^

Absolutely brilliant post!

As for the (few) women who say they have never ever been groped or hit on or stalked or harassed or letched at or catcalled or wolf whistled at ...... no matter how hard I try, I am really struggling to believe this. All I can think of is that these women must never go out, and must have never had a man in their house, and must have never met a man.

I know that sounds 'daft,' and far fetched, but so does a woman saying she has never ever ever experienced even the slightest bit of harassment or letching from any man - ever..

@whiskyowl

Because my whole life, I've had harassment, only a near-daily basis when I was younger. Men yelling things from cars. Men wolf-whistling. Men telling me they would buy something from me if I came to their house to do it (telesales job as a teen). Men commenting on my boobs, my butt, my legs. Photographers groping me as a pretence of positioning my body.

Men grinding against me on the tube. Men staring uncomfortably when I walked across a room. Men asking me to sit on their lap while they explain something (a teacher), or pushing me against a wall and shoving their hands up my shirt (about 10 boys in my class). Men telling me they were imagining me at a frat party (senior professor, I was a PhD student). Men touching me inappropriately, without my consent (and one even pulled my skirt up in front of a room so I was standing there in my knickers). Men telling me that they can sort my career if I have "dinner" with them. Men rating me and all the other women in the office out of 10. Men commenting on my weight, my figure, my choice of clothes. A man raping me. And those are just the few that occurred to me in the last 5 minutes. There's more, a whole load more there.

This also. ^

Although there are some women who would not have had to tolerate ALL you have had to tolerate, the vast majority, would have suffered at least some of this.

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 11:02

Pumper, are you saying that I'm oppressing women because I disagree with someone's assessment of that thread?

BishBoshBashBop · 18/10/2017 11:04

As for the (few) women who say they have never ever been groped or hit on or stalked or harassed or letched at or catcalled or wolf whistled at ...... no matter how hard I try, I am really struggling to believe this.

The thing is for them it is true even if it is a small amount. I think it's wrong yo say you are struggling to believe them.

We all see things through our own experiences.

Pumperthepumper · 18/10/2017 11:05

bumbley no, I'm saying you are using 'women do it too' to shut down discussion.

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 11:05

"if it's in any way relevant to the fact that the vast majority of sexually related, and violence related, crimes are committed by men."

Ok, so the majority of sexually related crimes are committed by men - this does not mean that the majority of men are committing sexual crimes. Why is it a problem I say that? Why take that as undermining? Why not just not use thread titles such as 'most men are creeps' so that people don't feel the need to defend the men in their lives and can actually have a discussion about the real issues?

bumbleymummy · 18/10/2017 11:05

Pumper, I'm not trying to shut down discussion.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 11:12

bumbley

I do take your point re women being mean

But people are allowed to be , there is no sisterhood its people with different opinions

I know you have strong views on some things but i am allowed to say that i think you are wrong

I dont call people rude names on here and it does make me cringe when others do , but they can call you what they like , its their opinion

As i said to kryten calling someone an outright lier or inferring that they are stupid should be reported so that mumsnet can take a look at it

KrytensNanobots · 18/10/2017 11:13

As for the (few) women who say they have never ever been groped or hit on or stalked or harassed or letched at or catcalled or wolf whistled at ...... no matter how hard I try, I am really struggling to believe this. All I can think of is that these women must never go out, and must have never had a man in their house, and must have never met a man.

Again, why am I lying? I'm female. Married. Before marriage in my 20s, lots of boozy nights out, pubs, nightclubs. Not groped once. When I had my own flat in town, 10 minute walk home at midnight, was fine.
Public transport home alone when lived more rural, walked back to the house around midnight all the time. Not a problem.
Male friends, got a few of them. Known them years, been alone in the same place with them loads of time.
Never once have they felt the need to attack or harrass.
Just because someone hasn't experienced it, doesn't mean their truth is any less than yours.

SandSnakeofDorne · 18/10/2017 11:14

There are people on this thread denying that there are coordinated posts on MN from men's forums, even though it is possible to see the organisation on their forums. Meta.