To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

“never been assaulted”

You have never been groped, grabbed, or otherwise touched against your will?

Not all sexual assault is actual rape.

It was also never been assaulted or harassed (referring to #metoo) iirc

I think it is simply that the site has become bigger and more mainstream and we are noticing the effects of that. A lot of women don't want to believe that institutional sexism exists. And yes more male posters but even without them.

I can believe never been assaulted. Harassed would be pushing it though.

From people I know, I would say it's more likely you have minimised an event than it has never happened. Not calling you a liar, just explaining my reasoning.

You have never been groped, grabbed, or otherwise touched against your will?

No.

KrytensNanobots, the question is asking about women being assaulted, and you want to talk about the nice men you know. The question wasn't abour all men being violent, its asking if all women have been attacked.

I saw this on black lives matter UK's facebook page the other day, nice way to shut down derailers:

Do you go onto dog charity home pages and say "Cats get abused too, look! Why don't you help cats? And some dogs bite people. Look at this baby who was hurt by a dog."

Nobody would do that because it would be deranged. Yet it is seen as acceptable to do this in response to people trying to discuss problems like sexism or racism.

I don't think its just an organised group. I do believe that MN has, particularly at certain times, been the target of the troll farms for political reasons.

However I also believe there are women who genuinely think like this.

Sometimes its to hold power over other women. Sometimes its to suppress the reality of their own experiences.

Its nicer and easier for some to say they've been empowered and taken advantage of men for their own gain, than admit to the uncomfortable reality.

I'd also say that there are plenty of male users who are not MRAs. The tone of some posts on here towards men are unhelpful in helping us stop some of this abhorrent behaviour as it tries to create men as the enemy. That's too simplist.

The other thing is that certain threads - particularly controversial ones - have a tendency to attract particular people more than others. You end up with the other end of the extreme flocking to it. Certain threads can and will give a distorted picture for that reason. It also depends on which section of the forum the post is in.

Just keep on getting the message out. If the message is strong and valid enough, and people communicate it well, others will get on board and time will change things. Perhaps slower than we like, but few meaningful changes happen over night but through slow progress and a series of key events rather than single ones.

Then there's the really bloody annoying poster with a male username who signs off every post. Best to ignore him but his posts make him sound like a right tool...

Indeed worra

I often delete posts I have written because I realise I will be accused of being a troll or an mra if I do post it. But actually I am a woman who has experienced some of the worst behaviour of men (CSA, rape, DV), but also I have known so many more men who are kind and thoughtful and horrified at the mistreatment of women. When threads like the one above (are all men creeps?) are posted I am fucking offended on their behalf, and I want to defend them

kyrten

Thats dreadful that you were out and out accused of lying

Hopefully you reported as thats bang out of order

I'm assuming it was the civility thread

flavia

That was funny when everyone else starting signing off the same way

Rufus, it was.

Regards
Beyond
(Qualified first aided)

I've got no idea about the sex or the agenda behind an anonymous user name, but there are women who don't or won't see it.

DM still thinks that wolf whistling was something positive to boost your self esteem and doesn't understand why it's a source of complaint. She doesn't see a connection in men feeling emboldened to comment on a random woman's appearance, and men like the flasher she encountered in a park.

There's enough women here who suffer as the "partner" of misogynists, very often because their own parental background taught them that such treatment was normal, and problems that cause disquiet are minimised. Ultimately a belief that men have some kind of superiority by both men and women underlies this diverse range of problems in society. (At the risk of going totally off topic, creating clearer and clearer distinctions between masculine and feminine choices in childhood doesn't bode well for the future)

*aider !

Course you are qualified beyond course you are

Yeh that thread was hilarious flavia and rufus. But I suppose our reaction to that poster would give credence to the POV of the mysogonist/MRA rather than see it for what it is.

lucydogz

. Yet it is seen as acceptable to do this in response to people trying to discuss problems like sexism or racism.
But generally posters on these threads don't want discussion. Or rather, they only want discussion within very narrow perimeters. The most favourable reaction to anyone who falls outside of that is that they are so brainwashed they don't realise they're sexist but mostly it takes the form the the poster is a dm reader, a man, a troll etc etc. I have never seen posters actually willing to discuss the issue with someone who differs from them.

Sorry, i'll try again
Yet it is seen as acceptable to do this in response to people trying to discuss problems like sexism or racism
But generally posters on these threads don't want discussion. Or rather, they only want discussion within very narrow perimeters. The most favourable reaction to anyone who falls outside of that is that they are so brainwashed they don't realise they're sexist but mostly it takes the form the the poster is a dm reader, a man, a troll etc etc. I have never seen posters actually willing to discuss the issue with someone who differs from them.

I find it so frustrating when we're talking about women's issues (i.e. Street harassment) and you have a huge heap of posters saying 'women do it too' 'not all men..' 'My husband is a nice man, he'd never do that' - as if it's in any way relevant to the fact that the vast majority of sexually related, and violence related, crimes are committed by men.

So, it is the problem of ALL MEN. Yes all men. Men are in the position to stop it happening, it's time to take responsibility for mankind and sort it out. Listen to women when we say we don't like it. Teach your sons to respect women. Stop the groping and the lewd conversation about your coworkers, pull your friends up for being disrespectful about women (even if the women can't hear him). Stop shutting down conversations with NAM, stop minimising by saying 'women do it too'.

I do believe the women who say they've never been assaulted or harassed.

But it is a stretch to believe it. Because my whole life, I've had harassment, only a near-daily basis when I was younger. Men yelling things from cars. Men wolf-whistling. Men telling me they would buy something from me if I came to their house to do it (telesales job as a teen). Men commenting on my boobs, my butt, my legs. Photographers groping me as a pretence of positioning my body.
Men grinding against me on the tube. Men staring uncomfortably when I walked across a room. Men asking me to sit on their lap while they explain something (a teacher), or pushing me against a wall and shoving their hands up my shirt (about 10 boys in my class). Men telling me they were imagining me at a frat party (senior professor, I was a PhD student). Men touching me inappropriately, without my consent (and one even pulled my skirt up in front of a room so I was standing there in my knickers). Men telling me that they can sort my career if I have "dinner" with them. Men rating me and all the other women in the office out of 10. Men commenting on my weight, my figure, my choice of clothes. A man raping me. And those are just the few that occurred to me in the last 5 minutes. There's more, a whole load more there.

It is so hard for me to understand what life would be like without this. Now I am older, I am more invisible than I used to be, but the wariness never goes away and I STILL get unwanted comments - more overtly negative these days in their tone.

I cannot imagine what it's like to get to adulthood and not deal with any of that, it's literally incomprehensible to me. I am sure these women aren't lying, but I can't understand their truth.

I don't understand why women feel the need to stick up for men on an anonymous forum. If lots of men were being physically attacked in the street for just being men or refused jobs because they were male or were being forced into marriages without their consent then they would need people to stick up for them and to help them. But this by the very by and large is not happening. The men in our lives are not going to be hurt by women discussing their lives and opinions on the internet.

I am sure these women aren't lying, but I can't understand their truth.
That's very close to saying you don't believe them.

I think it's part of a wider trend (broadly speaking, the rise of the 'alt-right'). So people with misogynistic, racist, homophobic views are now portraying themselves as the last oppressed minority, who are also funny and charming, but constantly being 'silenced' and that this is a terrible thing - their dull, dated, bigoted views are being ignored (because everyone has heard all that shit a million times) and this is an infringement of their rights, or that they are 'courageous' for pointing out that women do bad things or that some terrorists use a warped version of Islam to justify their crimes...

I don't understand why women feel the need to stick up for men on an anonymous forum.

Because they come in for a load of shit on here sometimes. (I don't mean the abusive ones, they deserve what's coming to them.)
I mean the normal ones. One off the top of my head as it's stuck with me- a thread a while back about a woman posting that her husband had been running on a canal tow path and went to overtake a woman.
Woman got spooked and sprayed him with attack dye that stains for days.
Posters came on to say "are you sure he didn't deserve it?" "I'd look at his behaviour if I was you, are you sure he's so innocent?" and "I'd spray someone too, they did right".
Disgusting, and victim blaming. Can work both ways. Plus the double standards on here sometimes - a dh and a dw could post identical stories but depending on whether they said they were male or female in the OP they'd get different answers.