To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

telstar - yes, absolutely. The last thing I wanted to suggest there was that I am in any way unusual - I do not see those experiences as an exceptional case. I don't think my catalogue is any longer or more comprehensive than that of many other women. I do think that I'm probably more aware of that level of harassment/assault because I've spent a longer time thinking about it (in therapy but also in writing and activism I've done).

Before that, like many women, I don't think I consciously registered it. Or rather, I did register it, but I filed it in a part of my mind that somehow boxed is as both "just normal/just how the world is" and as "something I don't want to think about because it's unpleasant". So basically, I was constantly accepting my discomfort as a woman as a necessary and natural part of the world, and repressing it so I didn't have to deal with it. So many women this week have said to me something along the lines of this: "I didn't think I'd ever had a negative experience, but then when I thought about it, there were loads and now I feel uncomfortable". Coming to consciousness can be a painful, difficult, even traumatic thing.

This is absolutely not denying that some women have genuinely never had these experiences!! I do believe those who say that, thoughtfully and after consideration. But there are equally some who just haven't realised they have them. That's not because they are stupid, or lacking in bravery - it's because we are educated into minimising, accepting and repressing the damage that these incidents do by a culture that has argued that "boys will be boys" for far too long.

But why feel the need to defend the men in your life? In the same way that I don't do on threads where posters are dealing with troubling behaviour in their children and say 'oh, my son would never tantrum' - its unhelpful and unnecessary.

And I'm yet to see a thread where anyone has said 'every single man in the world who has been and has ever been, is like this' - we are saying all men need to take responsibility for it, and they do.

whiskey

I agree, dd at 15 would say she hasnt had any problems...but she has

And she may have had incidences which come under the banner iof sexual harassment but she has either been oblivious to or doesnt know what they are

But i agree, not all women. There are obviously some that have never experienced this

Aaaah so sorry

whisky

rufus

"I do take your point re women being mean

But people are allowed to be , there is no sisterhood its people with different opinions

I know you have strong views on some things but i am allowed to say that i think you are wrong"

Of course. But thinking that someone is wrong because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong (or that you are right ) I don't have a problem with people having different opinions. I do think we should be allowed to share those without being told we are stupid/naive/blind etc etc.

Pumper if someone started a thread saying 'All children tantrum' then I'm sure there would be many saying 'mine don't' whereas if someone was posting about their own experience of their child tantruming, then I agree that it would be unhelpful and unnecessary to post that your child didn't. Similarly, if that women had started a thread saying 'these particular men I encountered were creeps' then it's less likely that people would feel the need to defend the men in their lives. If the aim was to have a thread discussing the problem of sexual assault and the existence of creepy men (which no one disputes) then a less inflammatory title would have been better.

It's also fascinating how one example of a woman using intemperate/inappropriate/aggressive language is always discussed at length. Like when somebody posts "I'm not a feminist because back in 1996 someone told me I couldn't be a feminist because I shaved my legs"
Women are expected to be unfailingly nice and measured. And feminists are seen as some sort of hive mind who agree on absolutely everything.

And please can someone clever write a simple explanation about "class" argument and can it be pinned so it doesn't have to be repeated several times on every single thread?

We are the Borg, Bert.
In fact, I didn't even really need to type that because our minds are connected and you knew what I was thinking...

Again bumbley i cant disagree

But some people are so aeriated ...with good reason on occasion. Especially if someone is obviously winding them up

I am very polite on here, not so much in real life

Rufus, oh I know. It can be very hard to stay calm and measured when someone is winding you up (as my eldest seems to be doing at every opportunity these days!) but it does seem a bit hypocritical to call out only one person's behaviour on the thread when others perhaps wasn't as good as it could have been but because they were 'on your side', as such, you didn't call it out.

When I try to reconcile my experiences of constant harassment with women who say it has never happened to them, I start to wonder whether some women have a more effective body language than others. I agree many incidents don't even register for some women, but maybe some women walk and talk in a way which somehow protects them from hassle.

I also think there is a tendency from some posters to contradict others, rather than to disagree. IYSWIM. The art of disagreeing without being rude, personal, or aggressive seems to be a bit lacking at times.

Sorry, I don't mean 'you' particularly.

S'ok i know what you mean bumbley

I dont generally call it out on the thread, i do report though

This was the exact title of that exact thread:

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility? - does that say all men?

picklemepopcorn I think it's mostly about interpretation. You only have to find any MN thread about a woman being catcalled to see that some people interpret harassment as harmless fun or flattery...

Pumper, no, it says 'most' and people disagreed with that.

pickle

No i don't reckon that's necessarily the case

I think some people are lucky not to have encountered it

What Telstar said.

About the women who claim to have never been harassed or discusminated against in any way whatsoever - I find that many( not all) of them believe that these things only happen to 'bad girls' who make poor choice. So if they say that these things HAVE happened to them , it's in effect an admission of guilt.

They are no longer a " good girl " , who didn't get drunk or go clubbing or date unsuitable men who " felt the need to attack or harass a them " or take public tranport late at night . Who married young and only went out suitable chaperoned by a their husband or a group of female friends. Who knows her place at work and always does what her make boss says.

They can't see the irony of the fact that it's endemic male violence and discrimation that force women to make choices like that to keep themselves safe.

So women who have been assaulted etc are a " bad girls " who brought it on themselves. And no one likes a whinger do they ? And it's not as if it was real assault , they were probably over reacting.

Or you get the " You have got a bloody cheek calling that sexual assault. I was raped every day of my life from age 12-16 by my uncle , that's REAL abuse. And so don't dare disagree with me because I have suffered more that you and that makes me always right " .

And i agree with daily

A woman who has been wolf whistled at or cat called but for some reason enjoys it is not going to say its sexual harassment...even though it is

People disagreed with it by saying that the men in their lives weren't, but that doesn't address the issue of why so many women feel that way.

Similarly, if that women had started a thread saying 'these particular men I encountered were creeps' then it's less likely that people would feel the need to defend the men in their lives. If the aim was to have a thread discussing the problem of sexual assault and the existence of creepy men (which no one disputes) then a less inflammatory title would have been better

I am a little unsure of this. I think the poster may well have been saying that sexual predation is a male trait. Prima facie it is a compelling stance. But I do think the poster's broadness was intentional.

And the NAMALT people do my head in.

I'm going to have a day going around MN posting that everywhere .

" my chicken has chicken flu, what are the best meds ? "

Not all chickens are like that you know, some are very healthy . You can't blame all poultry everywhere just because yours is sick.

" my child is applying for a crap course at a worthless university "

Not all institutions of higher learning are crap. My daughter was at a very nice one in Leicester, shall I tell you all about it?

" my Victoria sponge is flat "

I'm reporting your post for baked goods discrimination. You wouldn't be saying that if it was flapjacks.

Agree with make

I double dare you kr1st1na

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