To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

I am male and post here to propose that patriarchy and Capitalism are intertwined. I specifically post in response to specious right-wing (Tory) pronouncements.

I find it depressing how many women (and men) think our society is 'equal now' and that it's passe and old hat to be still talking about women's rights.

That's reflected here in MN.

Yes i see a lot of posts questioning other women's experiences these days.

I find it sad because it's MN which first really opened my eyes to the ingrained misogyny in our every day lives.

What I dislike so much about the recent surge in these threads is that nobody is allowed to disagree with what the poster says. Which is worrying.

I agree to an extent. It's almost in some instances as if you can't have your own thoughts, you have to agree with everything.

I don't think I have seen a thread recently discussing sexual violence or indeed any feminist issue without its share of "but women.....!" posts.

"What I dislike so much about the recent surge in these threads is that nobody is allowed to disagree with what the poster says. Which is worrying."

When you say "not allowed" what do you mean?

Cat, I like to think they don't, but I've seen a fair few people I know who are "mn demographic" sharing eg antivax stuff recently - so I'm a bit jaded!

Yes Bert. It's not even a minority, but a good chunk of every single woman-related thread :(

Make - I agree.

I thought it was only me who had suspected there were increasing numbers of men pretending to be women downplaying any negative experiences of real women or trying to make out that women commit the same crimes in equal numbers. Its not blatant old fashioned trolling it's a new tactic aimed at minimising stuff that happens to women and gaslighting.

Does that mean that you think I'm an MRA who only posts on MN in a coordinated agenda-led response, bristolone ?

Not just another MNetter who sees things differently?

I agree, OP. I've actually noticed a big increase in the last few months. There is, in my opinion, people who seem hell bent on returning women to the 70s.

When you say "not allowed" what do you mean?
What I mean is that if posters disagree with the op (even mildly) they are attacked. No alternative to the prevailing orthodoxy is allowed.

I don’t think it’s men or any type of organised trolling. I think that lots of women (and men) in our society have been conditioned to believe that this must be somehow women’s fault. Actual friends of mine that I love and respect have asked why Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie and all those other victimised women didn’t speak out to protect others. I find this so sad and disheartening.

Nevertheless I think any discussion can only be a good thing and I truly hope that this movement brings about actual change.

I think it's very difficult to read this thread without automatically thinking of the trans threads which there have been an increasing amount of.

I don't generally agree with the prevailing opinion on those threads, and although I do like a thoughtful discussion about the issue, I find that's often not possible.

I think on those threads in particular, if you have an alternative viewpoint the general view is that you must be an MRA trolling the boards.

You can support trans rights without being anti feminist, but not on MN. Not without being accused of being a man/MRA/anti feminist anyway.

And fake news is in the eye of the beholder, in many cases.

But discussion implies listening to alternative pov. Which is strongly objected to here.

"What I mean is that if posters disagree with the op (even mildly) they are attacked. No alternative to the prevailing orthodoxy is allowed."

What is the prevailing orthodoxy? Do you mean a "feminist" perspective? Because my perception is that expressing feminist views on any thread that is not ^specifically" feminist (and indeed, many that are) is most definitely not welcome........

I doubt groups of men per se have the organisational ability to orchestrate anything tbh. Write as a long time male poster. Usually the mra types are bored individuals with a grudge. And drunk.
The phenomenon is more likely to be I regular posters who don't wish to acknowledge how bad things are.

I see what lucydogz means. I would say that the "prevailing orthodoxy" on transgender is that any transgender issue is damaging to women and that sex is fixed and cannot be altered.

There are other points of view out there. Just not on MN.

And dissent not being allowed?

It's an anonymous netty forum. Say what you wish to say. No-one can edit anyone else.

Assuming a poster is an MRA troll can be a pretty good way of silencing a woman's voice, and getting her opinions dismissed.

There are definitely posters who seem to have a breathtaking contempt of women, while occasionally claiming to be one.

But there are also those who really seem to enjoy derailing an interesting thread by coming on and taking digs at posters until they bite back and then the discussion gets lost. They're sailing close to breaking guidelines but never quite cross the line. MNHQ used to look at the back history of a poster, now they ask you to report all their posts that concern you.

Pannn it's fucking boring when you're trying to have a discussion and ten posters are picking apart everything you write and yelling at you.

So yes, effectively dissent is closed down.

Reading about trans issues on MN was the first time I'd ever really come across them. I absolutely agreed with everything I heard. Only later on, listening to some podcasts did I come across the "other side" of the debate. And lo and behold it was just as sane and had just as many good points.

Which is why I now take the MN "prevailing view" with a pinch of salt. A large one.

Excellent point Bartholins I think. Hadn't considered that situation.

Assuming a poster is an MRA troll can be a pretty good way of silencing a woman's voice, and getting her opinions dismissed.

Yes to this. Both sides of a discussion should be heard, not just one.
If I was thinner skinned I'd have felt I had to shut up on some threads, but no, my experiences and thoughts as a woman are just as valid as everyone elses.

What's an MRA?

I dunno, I've been around for a few years now, since before the hack, and Mumsnet has always been a bastion of liberal, white feminism. (I work in contexts of academia and activism where such feminism is prevalent but also often questioned).

I think what is possibly happening is that a more radical and feminist politics - more attentive to the structural and material dimensions - has come to the fore in wider society, and that this is having two consequences. The first is that those with rather old-fashioned views really do appear further out of their time than they did 5 years ago; the second is a revelation of the weaknesses of a white, liberal, second-wavey feminism that is insufficiently engaged with intersectionality, power structures (Foucault), and materialism (Marx).