To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

what it is in response to the OP more than anything else. I am trying to explain the reason why shutting down NAMALT can reinforce anti 'feminist' prejudices.

I've put the word 'feminist' in inverts there because many women who support notions of equality of the sexes and abhor the rape culture do not identify themselves feminists for (misconceived) reasons on the basis that they assume 'feminists' hate all men or are anti men.

If on making that comment they are shut down for derailing the thread then that will reinforce that view - (that the feminist must view all men in the same light)

Why would it though? It would only reinforce that view if that's what the poster was determined to believe, if they were being wilfully ignorant. And there's not much anyone can do about that.

Ah but Tara, NAFALT....
(I know you know this btw, I'm joking - in case that isn't obvious!)

The thing is, I've never seen NAMALT be 'shut down' on one of these threads except by people saying things like "yes, we know, my husband's lovely too, now can we get back to the main point" which effectively addresses your point

I agree with what

I have never seen anyone respond to 'not all men are like that...my husband is lovely'

With

NO ALL MEN ARE LIKE THAT AND YOUR HUNSBAND IS TOO

And not being snarky but if anyone does see that could they pm me...cos that thread would be a doozy!!!

What is a hunsband?

Beyond you're right.

pumper I'm a case in point, no?

I don't think I'm that unique! I don't think it is always wilful ignorance either that leads to those views.

Rufus it's that man who lives in your house who you hate and never talk to under any circumstance. He may have fathered your son, who you also hate and never speak to.

Haha taratill - wilful ignorance in a significant percentage would be my guess.

rufus no I haven't seen anything that overt, but accusing someone of trying to derail without further explanation can give them the feeling that that is what is meant.

I'm not going to convince anyone here , I know that, but I guess there are prejudices against the use of the term feminist for the reasons I stated above and saying 'well if that's how they feel so they must be ignorant' rather than trying to explain in terms of the very useful set of assumptions Bertrand set out earlier that those prejudices are misplaced isn't going to challenge those prejudices, is it?

pumper

My sons wish i didnt talk to them

tara I haven't seen anything that overt (thought i would love to) but on every thread like this its 'not all men' every few posts and every few posts someone goes ' you are right its not all men' or ' we just mean men as a class' then there's another 'but not all men'...and repeat

And then the 'man hater' posts start

And people twist words on here every time

Sometimes i find it quite incredible

It just seems like a bit of a catch-22. People will only listen to feminists if they refrain from doing class analysis and only talk about non-violent men in discussions of male violence?

That’s because people don’t RTHT, and answer the thread title. There will always be posters like that on mumsnet, unfortunately. Yes it interrupts the flow but I don’t think the intention is to derail (obviously you do get the odd troll aiming to do just that), they’re just jumping in too quickly.

I suppose if you really don’t like it, the only way to avoid it is to post on the feminism board.

well if that's how they feel so they must be ignorant

Nope, not what I said - if it's been explained why NAMALT isn't helpful and they still choose to see it as a feminist nit-picking then I can't do anything about that.

Plus, to return to our favourite statistic of 98% of violent crimes being committed by men - is this even a feminist argument? Is it even an argument? It's a fact - you don't have to be a feminist to believe it, because there's nothing to believe. So a feminist pointing out that NAMALT isn't helpful shouldn't really make any difference.

mittens

Yes that happens sometimes

But sometimes its the same few posters time after time

Not just on feminism threads...seems to happen on a lot of the politics ones as well

he only way to avoid it is to post on the feminism board

That doesn't avoid it as everyone can also post on that board...quite rightly

I know. I suppose the only way to avoid it is to have a closed Facebook page, where you can write your own rules. You can discuss male violence on the survivors of rape support group, with no fear of random people joining in to derail the discussion.

When it’s a closed group, you can have control over what people post.

On mumsnet you can’t, on any board, especially not AIBU, where people are allowed to say, yes YABU. All you can do is answer and bring the discussion back where you want it.

the problem with limiting discussion of male violence to closed groups of rape survivors is that

1. it maintains the mainstream view of male sexual violence as secret and shameful and rape survivors' problem

and

2. it reduces the likelihood that it will come to be seen as a public health problem that needs to be addressed more effectively

And the thread is derailed time and time again until it hits 1000. It's almost as if there's a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women...........

Pumper "the OP wanted to talk about how widespread the problem was, and what we could do about it. But because people took umbridge against her wording, it became yet again a thread full of stories of nice men. That's not the point of the thread, it's massively unhelpful in addressing the problem raised by the OP."

As I said earlier, if you want to talk about the issue then don't use such an inflammatory title that will put people's back up and make them want to defend their loved ones.

Oh, and on the other thread there were responses to people saying that their husbands weren't like that telling them that actually they probably were and they just didn't know.

"People will only listen to feminists if they refrain from doing class analysis and only talk about non-violent men in discussions of male violence?"

Nope. Not saying that at all.

"Oh, and on the other thread there were responses to people saying that their husbands weren't like that telling them that actually they probably were and they just didn't know. hmm"

The relationship boards are teeming with women being treated like shit by men and either unaware or in denial about it. It's a common pattern.

""People will only listen to feminists if they refrain from doing class analysis and only talk about non-violent men in discussions of male violence?"

Nope. Not saying that at all."

Certainly sounds like it......

As I said earlier, if you want to talk about the issue then don't use such an inflammatory title that will put people's back up and make them want to defend their loved ones

I mean, I think I've adressed this enough, don't you? Or do I have to go back twenty pages and copy and paste the conversation we had about semantics?