Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 09:31

tara

The whole point of the word' most' is to say not all

Personally i would have preferred 'a lot of' but either way still means NAMALT Smile

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 09:34

doubt the intention is to derail the thread

This is again why i said that its a little of both

Some people dont get the arguments because they havent seen them before etc

Some people do but dont agree

And some people are deliberately obtuse in order purely to cause problems

On loads of threads

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 09:35

If people react to the title of the thread, they will say so, and this is a very emotive issue for women. So I’m sorry about ‘derailing the thread’ but if it’s about women’s experiences of male violence then it’s a valid thing to say.

I actually felt disloyal to my DH agreeing with the title in the ‘most men...’ title, hence why I reacted to it. So please cut people some slack when they interrupt your rant.

The problem is that deep within me there is a voice saying that ‘all men are like my father’, and it’s difficult to trust.

Arealhumanbeing · 20/10/2017 09:35

MuseumOfCurry

There were no real grounds. A few examples though.

She said that they all pursued him sexually in order to further their careers and now they regret it because they’re old and he doesn’t want them anymore.

That they shouldn’t have gone to his room if they didn’t ‘want to come off worse’. That one actually made me go hot and cold.

‘What man wouldn’t want women throwing themselves at him’.

That “these women” should learn to let things go and don’t they care about his wife?!

And then the grand finale where we were all apparently calling our Dads rapists.

There was more, it went on for quite a while.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 09:44

pumper

No therapy yet Grin

Pumperthepumper · 20/10/2017 09:51

'I have at times on this thread said NALMALT it was me who pointed out that 98% of men commit sex crimes just because 98% are committed by men. I wasn't trying to derail or denegrate the argument at all. I was just stating the truth. Because I'm interested in this topic and the arguments I have followed them through and can see how that can look as though it is intentionally trying to derail. I can categorical tell you that it wasn't though.'

taratill genuinely, thank you for saying this. I'm so pleased that you see it, sincerely think it was very big of you to post this when we've been arguing different sides of the fence for 35 pages Flowers

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 09:53

So, no takers for my idea of taking some things as read then?

BeyondNoone · 20/10/2017 10:25

It'd be nice if women who do have lovely husbands, sons, fathers and brothers could also include that they understand the "most" be due to xyz negative experiences.

I may have wonderful men in my life (though "most" of them have at least one niggle), but over my life the negative experiences outweigh the good.

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 10:33

I know what you mean, BeyondNoone, I’m just trying not to be defined by my bad experiences of men. Hence, the word ‘most’ was a trigger as a part of me still feels as though all men want to hurt me.

Trust is very difficult, but I don’t want my DDs to be defined by my fears either, otherwise how will I let them enjoy being around men, IYSWIM?

taratill · 20/10/2017 11:04

thanks pumper

I think my point though, in connection to the OP, is to assume all women who NAMALT are doing so to deliberately derail is incorrect and the danger of the assumption is that you may lose some altogether on the basis of the fact that not all people do take what betrand has listed as the set of assumptions as read.

They are a great set of assumptions Bertrand but jumping upon someone who states NAMALT (or assuming that they are saying it to belittle the awful impact of violence and harassment against women) may well reinforce the fact that some people do not think feminists are starting from that premise. I'm not saying that is right, I'm just saying it can be an effect.

To be honest with you, this thread has been quite an eye opener to me. I nearly left it pages ago because I was getting frustrated. I'm glad I didn't.

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 12:35

But it’s great that these assumptions have now been spelt out, Bertrand, thank you. We can continue discussing the issues knowing that we are all on the same page. I’m glad I’ve persevered as well. It’s harrowing for me, but it’s been very helpful to be able to talk about these things freely without being afraid of hurting people close to me. Smile

Laiste · 20/10/2017 13:04

Group hug? :)

Great thread.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 13:04

"They are a great set of assumptions Bertrand but jumping upon someone who states NAMALT (or assuming that they are saying it to belittle the awful impact of violence and harassment against women) may well reinforce the fact that some people do not think feminists are starting from that premise. I'm not saying that is right, I'm just saying it can be an effect"

Thank you! I have to say that I am wondering what the purpose of NAMALTing is if it's not to deflect and minimize, but maybe I'm old anc cynical. It's my age and cynicism that also leads me to think that anyone who doesn't think feminists are starting from that premise, or who don't accept that the are when it's explained to them is either not very bright or disingenuous. Or both.

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 13:14

Why would I minimise in my situation, Bertrand? I’ve been through my DM’s minimising all my life. It’s the last thing I want to do. But I have to maintain a positive view of men for my own sanity, otherwise I would start doubting my DH and not allowing him a proper father-daughter bond with my DDs.

It’s a personal issue for people, and very triggering, so there’s self-protection involved. It’s possible some posters are minimising, but they are talking from their own experiences. And it’s not an attempt to derail the thread, that’s a very unfair thing to say.

taratill · 20/10/2017 13:20

But the flip side of your assumption is that if someone is NAMALTing for other reasons it can be disingenuous to strike them down because it will reinforce their assumption that you are somehow rejecting the notion that NAMALT!

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 13:30

Sorry, mittens, did you NAMALT? I didn't see.....

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 13:32

I did say that I had a lovely DH yes.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 13:33

Sorry, Tara, I don't understand that. But I do think that I am only prepared to go so far in accommodating people who plainly don't get it and don't want to get it.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 13:35

But I think everyone posting on here has positive views of individul men..... see my "assumptions that can be made" post passim^!!!!!!

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 13:42

Thankfully, though, unlike the ‘most men...’ thread, this thread hasn’t been derailed by a troll determined to undermine what we’re all talking about. This is as good as it’s ever likely to get on mumsnet, Bertrand, especially on AIBU. Anyone is free to comment and will do.

Nothing you can do about it, except argue your case.

taratill · 20/10/2017 13:51

bertrand does this help:

If a woman has (for any reason) assumed that a feminist has the view that all men must be sexual predators (or whatever else), then they may well make a NAMALT comment.

If on making that comment they are shut down for derailing the thread then that will reinforce that view - (that the feminist must view all men in the same light).

That doesn't help anyone, the NAMALTer may well have exactly the same views as you and not have understood the reason you have shut her down.

That kind of thing puts some women off identifying themselves as feminists.

If you don't shut her down but explain your set of assumptions and she continues to NAMALT then that's different.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 20/10/2017 13:52

NAMALTing because you are working hard to overcome a trauma-related distrust of all men and you don't want your worst fears confirmed makes absolute sense Mittens. Thank you, I found that a really helpful explanation of why women might do it.

Iris65 · 20/10/2017 13:57

I use it in an attempt to cover the fact that I know not all men are like that, but that a significant number are. I am trying to save time and frustration- I don't think all men are rapists so prefacing my comments with NAMALT is intended to make that clear. But if there's a better way of saying that I'd be pleased to use it.

I use it the same way, but have definitely seen it used as a derailing tactic.

The focus when someone is talking about their experiences should be on hearing what they are saying. I was physically and emotionally abused by my Father. Someone popping up and saying NALDALT makes me feel that they are not listening to me, they are actually reassuring themselves!

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 14:07

I know exactly what you mean, Iris65, I’m sorry about the experiences you’ve had with your father. Flowers

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 20/10/2017 14:09

But Taratill once everyone's agreed that NAMALT, as they have repeatedly done on this thread, why does it need to go on being discussed?

Swipe left for the next trending thread