To leave my DD1 (aged 8, year 4, while I chauffeur DD2 to Rainbows?

[Mittens1969]

A bit of background. I take both DDs in the car when it’s time for DD2 (5) to go to Rainbows. DD1 has said a few times that she’d like to stay at home whilst I take DD2 in the car. WIBU to leave her at home? I’m out of the house for 15/20 minutes at the most.

I haven’t done it yet, but I’m wondering if she’s old enough to be left at home alone if she hasn’t finished her tea or is watching a TV programme that she doesn’t want to miss?

I suppose it’s more of a WWYD, for those of you who have a child of a similar age?

Yes I have from 8 yrs old for 15 minutes every morning for a term whilst I took DS2 to school. It enabled my DD3 to carry on getting ready for school.

It totally depends on your situation: is your child sensible, can you trust them, do you have neighbours close by? Can your child use the phone to ring you in an emergency? Does your child know what to do in an emergency, fire, dropped glass/crockery on the floor? Know not to open the door to anyone etc?
Every child is different, you know your child best. My DD3 feels very grown up, it's the start of independence

I wouldn't leave an 8 year while I take another child to Rainbows, because I am a Rainbow leader and know that there is a chance of me getting held up at my actual paid job and being 5 minutes late letting the girls in, or I might need to grab a parent for a quick word at drop off, which would then make you later home. I have also had situations in the past where I have had to ask parents to wait 10-15 minutes as the other leader was stuck in traffic and I am not allowed to let the girls in without another adult present.

I'm genuinely not sure I'm in the minority in the wider world.

You're not, in many parts of the world its considered good parenting not to drag your children along everywhere with you and give them some freedom and independence. An 8 year old that's never left alone here would be more likely to be viewed with concern (not much concern at 8 though people would think you're a tad overprotective, but certainly by 10 or so people would think there's something wrong with the parents if they won't let them be home alone for a bit or go places by themselves)

Where I live, it’s actually against the law to leave children unattended until they are 14. Leaving an 8yo would probably be reported by others.

Depends on the child, I do with mine with strict instructions. He is 9 but at 8 I started by leaving him for day 10 minutes whilst I walked the dog and then built it up from there, so he is now confident for a good 30 minutes or so. I always say where I am going how long I’m going to be and not to answer the door.

I started leaving dc1 for 20 min at a time when he'd just turned 9 (this was also to collect dc2), but I was on foot. Not sure I'd have wanted to at that stage with a car journey involved, tbh.

I'm surprised some PP don't start this until 11. That seems very late, particularly as many of said 11yos either will be starting long independent journeys to secondary soon or already do them. I've recently started leaving my 12yo alone for up to 2h when I take his brother to a music lesson - that involves a 5 min train journey and wal, then waiting there, then the journey back.

Where I live, it’s actually against the law to leave children unattended until they are 14.

Where's that? Can they not walk alone to the shops or school?

Very different responses on here. The most I’ve done so far is to allow her and her little sister to run 3 doors down to their friends’ house where their mum is waiting. It’s unlikely I’ll dare to do it. But it’s not a case of not being bothered, it’s a case of wondering whether I’m being fair in saying she has to come with me.

LaughingElliot Are you in Illinois, I've heard 14 mentioned there too, but that isn't actually what the law says, it actually says that from 14 you can always leave a child alone, rather than the reverse, under 14 it's the same as here, the problem is neglect, and it's not specifically defined what is and isn't - ccrs.illinois.edu/parents/childrenathomealone.html

No sirfred I'm in New Zealand.

That's bonkers Elliot! Are they not allowed to do anything alone til 14 then?

pmgt.org.nz/babysitter-guidelines/

"It does not mean literally that you must not leave a child aged under 14 alone. "

"The Police take cases seriously; where children are left for long periods of time – having to cook meals, look after small children and generally fend for themselves."

So again, it doesn't appear to be specifically against the law, just an act which makes it easier to prosecute when under 14 (and presumably harder when over, given that the UK cases are often about parents leaving their mid-teens whilst going overseas on holiday)

It does however obviously give an signal to everyone that older is more appropriate to leave. The idea that kids are never let out of sight has not been common in any New Zealander I've met, but maybe that's why they've moved to the UK with their younger kids!

I started doing this at age 8. Only if I was going out locally within a 2-3 mile area. He didn't move off the sofa tbh as long as he had the iPad to play on

Here let me help you with that googling - sirfred

From the police website, NZ

Young children must never be left alone in a house or vehicle – they need constant supervision. It is illegal to leave a child under the age of 14 years without reasonable provision for their care.

auntlydia - why do you say that? It is about leaving them alone in a building or vehicle. There are plenty of things that children can do alone while still having an adult around. And yes of course they are allowed to get themselves to and from schools, shops etc.

what might other people think* rather than a rational evaluation of risk...

Totally this! ^

I leave my DD9 at home for local drop offs. She knows my number off by heart, the rules - don't use anything in the kitchen and don't answer the door and what to do in an emergency - go to the neighbours all of whom she knows well.

I guess because it just doesn't make much sense to me...they are allowed outside the home without adult supervision but not inside.

Because statistically they're more at risk alone in a vehicle or a home. It really is that simple.

without reasonable provision for their care.

Surely this is open to interpretation. Reasonable provison includes having a set of guidelines in place, like going to a neighbour if theres a problem, being able to contact you or someone else if needed, not going off on holiday and leaving them, making sure they know what to do in an emergency. Not actually being banned from leaving them at home on their own for a period of time. Just putting provisions in place to safeguard their wellbeing. If they are allowed out alone, but not home alone, then that makes no sense whatsover.

People keep repeating that "they are allowed to be alone outside" but they aren't alone outside. They're are usually other people outside! So if something happens, an adult can help them.

That's not the cause when they totally alone inside a house.

But it is if they have a plan in place, neighbours, phone numbers, that kind of sensible plan. The chances of being harmed in the community is far greater through traffic, strangers etc then it ever would be at home.

*without reasonable provision for their care.

Surely this is open to interpretation. Reasonable provison includes having a set of guidelines in place, like going to a neighbour if theres a problem, being able to contact you or someone else if needed, not going off on holiday and leaving them, making sure they know what to do in an emergency. Not actually being banned from leaving them at home on their own for a period of time. Just putting provisions in place to safeguard their wellbeing*

Yes, absolutely that. Making it illegal gives the police power to act when children have been left in dangerous situations. The reasonable provision disclaimer means that parents and police can make sensible decisions.

If they are allowed out alone, but not home alone, then that makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes it makes a lot of sense. Children outside are usually going somewhere or with others or near others. They are not usually left in isolation for long periods of time. That would be abandonment.

DancingDragon But it is if they have a plan in place, neighbours, phone numbers, that kind of sensible plan. The chances of being harmed in the community is far greater through traffic, strangers etc then it ever would be at home.

That is a much-repeated myth. The danger from traffic and strangers is much lower than the danger of being alone in a vehicle or home.

Actually it really isnt a myth at all.