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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:16

People deserve to be judged as individuals.

It’s perfectly possible to do this and also recognise that men as a class are a danger to women.

The same way not every white person is racist, but white people as a class oppress black people

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:16

CherryChasingDotMuncher You never been to Ibiza or Kavos. Come on ladies stop trying to pretend your all virgins and were never naughty.

Spikeyball · 15/10/2017 15:17

Most men are not creeps but there are too many that do not condemn loudly enough, the behaviour of creeps.

oldted · 15/10/2017 15:17

Oh look everyone - MartinJD is back in his role of self appointed goady fucker again.

DFOD & Kindest Regards,
Blackboard Monitor (1990-91)

AngeliqueDePeyrac · 15/10/2017 15:17

I dont think mainstream books like Twilight and Fifty Shades help matters either by normalising the fact that having a, quite frankly, emotionally stunted and controlling bf is something to be desired and yearned for. That because those men want us they are entitled to have us however and whenever they like. And both written by women.

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 15:18

Yes no need for factual statistics on crime rates etc when we have those cutting edge documentaries Geordie Shore and Jeremy Kyle to set us straight.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:18

Since I am not a lady, that comment does not apply to me.

xqwertyx · 15/10/2017 15:18

None of the men i know are creeps either. All of my close friends are male bar one. I dont know what i’d do without the men in my life!

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:19

Yep. Criminal policy should be written on the basis of Geordie Shore and Jeremy Kyle. They give such accurate information about what is happening in Britain.

FloweringDeranger · 15/10/2017 15:19

"Come on ladies stop trying to pretend your all virgins and were never naughty."
How do you shits get the fucking nerve to compare rape, death, and women's ongoing living torment to "being naughty"
Fuck the hell off.

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:20

Oh well I gave it my best shot.

xqwertyx · 15/10/2017 15:21

Just to add i know of a lot of disturbed women who have gone out of their way to destroy men, make their lives difficult and turn everyone they possibly can against them though. They scare me much more.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:21

You never been to Ibiza or Kavos. Come on ladies stop trying to pretend your all virgins and were never naughty.

Are you for real? Did you know that

85,000 women in the U.K. are raped every year. That’s 1 in 10 women.
1 in 5 women experience sexual violence
Q in 4 experience domestic violence
The rape conviction rate is 2%. Meaning 98% of rapists walk free.
96% of sexual offenders are male
2 women a week are murdered by their partners

But yeah, some people go to Kavos, so all the above isn’t really a problem.

Some women may be ‘naughty’ but they sure as hell don’t tend to rape anyone

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 15:22

whiteribbonblog.com/2014/04/17/the-danger-of-the-monster-myth/

This is the link to the article that Tom Meagher wrote. It's a powerful piece

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:22

You never been to Ibiza or Kavos. Come on ladies stop trying to pretend your all virgins and were never naughty.

Not being a virgin means females behave like males?

Wow.

Also being 'naughty' once or twice, is just nothing like the way males treat females on a daily basis.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:22

You know all those women who have been groped, had disgusting sexual comments made, been sent dick pics, been sexually assaulted or raped, it is men who have done this. And it is so common that no, it is not a small minority of men doing this. It is women's fathers, brothers, sons and partners.

Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 15:23

CherryChasing

speak for yourself but surely that's the point. Because u don't objectify men doesn't mean all or even most other women don't. You simply don't know. Equally, I really don't think we should be saying most men are creeps. It really doesn't strengthen our argument about ending sexist stereotyping which is what the actual creeps use to justify their disgusting behaviour.

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:23

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

FloweringDeranger do you know many men like that? I think there are a lot of good men out there. That title only tells me that I should fear men and I don't.

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:23

What a horrible, sweeping generalisation of a post. Of course most men are not creeps, despite what's been in the news this week.
I've managed to get to the age of 40 without coming across any horrible ones. Got a lovely Dad, uncles, brother, husband, had two fab Grandads and I've got a couple of great male friends too.
I find it so sad if some feel so jaded and trodden on that they feel all males must be creeps due to their experiences of them.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:23

Okay this thread is crawling with MRAs. Have you been alerted on an MRA group about this thread?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:25

Just to add i know of a lot of disturbed women who have gone out of their way to destroy men, make their lives difficult and turn everyone they possibly can against them though. They scare me much more

I take it you got their side of the story too?

It’s just that this often amounts to ‘my friend had his kids taken off him by a bitter ex’ abut they fail to understand the male friend was violent and abusive and the mother is thinking of her kids, but that doesn’t fit the handmaiden narrative.

Trust me when I say, men should scare you a lot more than women should

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:25

Okay this thread is crawling with MRAs.

What's an MRA? Genuine question.

Doobigetta · 15/10/2017 15:26

I haven't read the whole thread, I'll go back and do that. But I have to say, no. Far too many of them. Depressingly, scarily, fury-inducingly too many of them, but not all. My partner, my brothers, my good friends, are not like this. They are decent, intelligent, honourable people. I don't think it does any of us any favours to accept that boys will be boys and boys are monsters. That's where the problems start. It's just too easy for the monsters to get away with it when we're all, as a society, prepared to roll our eyes and shrug and turn a blind eye.

oldlaundbooth · 15/10/2017 15:26

Happyemoji and bumbly have obviously been living in some fucking alternative universe since they were born.

oldlaundbooth · 15/10/2017 15:27

I've managed to get to the age of 40 without coming across any horrible ones.

Really?

Like, really? Where so you live?

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