Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

[Narnia72]

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

• Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

• 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

Not all men assault.

I'd bet my life most of them have momentarily considered it though, and yes I had a wonderful father and a nice partner.

today I had a conversation with my daughter about how her safety comes first. And second. And third. And fuck anyone’s feelings. If she thinks she is unsafe, she can do whatever it takes to get out. By any means necessary, even violence. And especially violence.

I gave my 10 year old permission today to be as violent as her small body will allow if it means she gets away.

Fuck men

I think this is a ridiculous title and cheapens your argument. Should men stand up against disgusting creeps. Yes absolutely. Should women equally stand up against disgusting creeps. Yes you betcha.

My experience of being sexually harrassed in the office was that it was the other women that minimised it, because it hadn't happened to them (!). The men were sympathetic and didn't question me. I know that's anecdotal, but goes to show you can't generalise about this kind of thing.

Yes there are some creepy men, clearly. But here is also a power play going on in that is hard to put your head above the parapet and stand up to bullies, which is what creeps generally are. Both women and men are responsible to some extent for this.

I'm on a forum for a mostly male sport. Sometimes sexist crap is spouted. But I pretty often call the idiots out for it. And invariably some guy does too.

I'm pretty sure my sons don't hate women. They haven't shown any signs of it.

The point is we have to stand up on all fronts. All of us. We have to educate our sons and our daughters. We have to challenge casual sexism. We have to call out creepy behaviour. We have to believe that we are worthy of respect but are also respectful back to men who merit it.

I don't hate men. I know lots of really good guys. And don't lump my sons under a banner just because the cause of mutual respect is a really important one.

What a horrible post. No, I do not think most men are creeps. How awful that your life and experience with men has led you to feel that way. I'm surprised that so many people have agreed with you but I guess this is MN and not exactly an accurate reflection of RL.

Yes agree with you OP.

I hate being with DP and his mates when they've had a drink as the talk will, inevitably, turn to who they'd like to do what to out of their mutual friends. They don't understand how degrading it is, not only to these women, but also to me to hear this. They think it's just banter.

I don't think most men are creeps.
I don't think most men are would-be assaulters, if they thought they could get away with it.
But a lot are.

I do think that it's part of my responsibility as a mother of boys to teach them that women are as worthy of respect in every way as men.
I do think that I can do this, and I should do this. And in fact I already do, and will continue to do so.
One of the reasons I think this is because there are FAR too many men out there who, while not being creeps themselves, would refuse to condemn another man for being a creep. Creeps by association, if you like.

So I place no reliance on peer pressure to behave well, no reliance on male role models to teach my sons that women should be treated with as much respect as men - because that generally isn't the case.

When you still hear grown men saying "come on, lad, you run/throw like a girl!" and the like, you know that women are still seen as inferior, because they are saying it. "like a girl" is still pejorative, most of the time, when used by grown men to small boys.

Men see no perceived benefit to having women be equal to them. (Most men. Some do). So they don't see it as their fight, in general. WE are the ones who suffer because of the inequality, so WE are the ones who do have to fight, because if we don't, no one else will.

"no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one"

Women are no different in how they talk trust me.

Happy Not the women I am friends with.

What a horrible post. No, I do not think most men are creeps. How awful that your life and experience with men has led you to feel that way. I'm surprised that so many people have agreed with you but I guess this is MN and not exactly an accurate reflection of RL.

Agree with this above.

No

Many men who are lovely to the women they love and like, behave differently when just with a group of men.

brasty You need to get out more then or watch Geordie Shore that will open your eyes.

Both women and men are responsible to some extent for this.

Women are never responsible for the predatory behaviour of men.

* Women are no different in how they talk trust me.*

Speak for yourself. I don’t objectify men with my friends. Remarkably we find other subjects to talk about. We’d ace the Bechdel test

Many men who are lovely to the women they love and like, behave differently when just with a group of men.

Jeremy Kyle is another good example of how women behave badly when out with their mates.

You need to get out more then or watch Geordie Shore that will open your eyes

😂😂😂😂😂

Because Geordie Shore is a benchmark of realistic and not-at-all-put-on-for-the-cameras portrayal of male and female dynamics. Jesus wept

You need to get out more then or watch Geordie Shore that will open your eyes.

Geordie shore is hardly representative of how females (or males) behave. Its also scripted, in the sense that they get told what to do and what situations to get into, not in the sense that they have to learn lines.

This is no different than stereotyping women as weak and flighty or immigrants as lazy dole seekers or Jewish people as cheap. People deserve to be judged as individuals.

My father was a fine man, my husband is a lovely man and my son is a very fine young man. None of them deserve to be painted with your prejudiced brush.

www.thejournal.ie/tom-meagher-late-late-show-1433550-Apr2014/

People need to get their head out of the sand and stop making this into a 'but not all men' argument. This is not the point. It is the majority of cases that a man has committed domestic violence, sexual assault etc.

I urge anyone to read about the White Ribbon where men are speaking out about things they see and hear other men doing.

The above link is an article about an amazing man Tom Meagher who's beautiful wife was raped and murdered in Australia a few years ago and he writes an amazing piece that talks about how these men are not someone else they are our sons, husbands, fathers etc and he works with the White Ribbon project. He has gone into schools to talk about consent and what it means.

We need more people like him

Are you seriously comparing the amount of objectification women are subjected to on a daily, if not hourly basis, to the odd group of women out on a hen night happy? Not to mention that when women are objectified sexually violence is rarely far behind. When we are talking about the way men behave to women it's a spectrum: starts with wolf-whistling and constant - I mean constant - objectification and commodification and ends with 2 women dead a week, god knows how many raped and untold numbers harassed. Women simply do not and cannot have that effect on men.

So we have Jeremy Kyle, an d Geordie Shore, as proof that females are as bad as males

Maybe you need to stop watching so much shite TV then you may not have such an opinion on females

Jeremy Kyle is another good example of how women behave badly when out with their mates

You need to watch better TV.

I didn’t know Jeremy Kyle had changed it’s format from ‘twat shouting at vulnerable people’ to ‘documentary of female friendships’.

Women are no different in how they talk trust me.

Speak for yourself, I have never, ever been with a group of women, who when seeing a 12 year old boy in school uniform have said 'cor, I'd love to fuck him' have you?

I've never heard of a woman randomly grabbing a young lad's crotch in passing either.

If we did, it would be considered a state of war, or at least terrorism. But we are all told to put up and shut up because 'not all men are like that'.

I have to laugh at some of the comments on here, or I would cry.