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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
oldlaundbooth · 15/10/2017 15:27

Do you live, obviously

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:28

Men's Rights Activist. And no they don't fight for men who have a genuinely hard time like homeless men. They go around blaming women, especially feminists, for anything a man ever gets upset about. For example, all men who don't see their kids, it is only because their ex is an evil bitch that stops them seeing their kids. When in reality men don't see their kids for lots of reasons.

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 15:28

YANBU, very sad, especially that so many men still get away with it.

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 15:29

And I’m also happily married so I know it’s not all men by any means, and I have a lot of really good male friends, and BILs, and nephews.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:30

Yes MRAs aren’t interested in what affects men the most, like mental health, they want to destroy women especially feminists

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 15:30

But they are not all some monster?? This is the point - they are someone's son, husband, father, uncle etc?

Anyone who has been convicted of a crime against a woman I am sure has surprised and shocked people in their family who had no idea?

Just because it's not all men it doesn't mean it's not a problem and shouldn't be called out by more men?

I'm married to a man, have a son, father and brothers - doesn't stop me educating myself on what is happening to women

Anatidae · 15/10/2017 15:30

Yanbu.

It’s embedded into every layer of society and it’s incredibly depressing.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:31

In every street lives a man on the sex offenders register. And that is just those who have been caught.

xqwertyx · 15/10/2017 15:31

@CherryChasingDotMuncher I worked, lived, ate with 300+ men and only12 women at any one time for 11 years.... can assure you i do not need to be more afraid of men.

I did have their side of the story yes. Maybe i am just lucky i cant be bothered to debate this but i want to confirm to the OP that i have made it over 30 years without having met any of the men referred to.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:33

I suspect you were not paying attention.

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:33

Just because it's not all men it doesn't mean it's not a problem and shouldn't be called out by more men?

It should be womens responsibility as well. They should also speak out when things are wrong as well as men. A man might not be there when its happening.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:33

You are very lucky then. Or oblivious.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:34

I feel like I’ve said this 100 tines the last week but I’ll keep saying it -

It is not the responsibility of women to correct men’s bad behaviour.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:34

I worked with a Caribbean women in her 50s who claimed she had never seen or experienced racism. I was there with her when it happened. She was a bit thick.

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 15:35

i have made it over 30 years without having met any of the men referred to

Then you should thank your lucky stars instead of being dismissive of those women who have.

oldlaundbooth · 15/10/2017 15:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:36

I've managed to get to the age of 40 without coming across any horrible ones.Really? Like, really? Where do you live?

England. Yes, like really, really, I have. I do go out, I've been in workplaces, lots of nights out etc.
Lots of lovely men in my family too.
Not all men are horrible.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:37

It’s just that this often amounts to ‘my friend had his kids taken off him by a bitter ex’ abut they fail to understand the male friend was violent and abusive and the mother is thinking of her kids, but that doesn’t fit the handmaiden narrative.

Yeah I have come across this too. I used to sympathize with men who said this, now I wonder what the actual story is as. 2 men who have said this to me, it turned out that the reason they could not see their kids was because they were abusive (one was abusive towards the child he reckons he loves)

Another favourite is bringing up how the courts usually side with the mother. Failing to recognize that courts do not discriminate on the basis of sex and if it had been the male who did the lions share of childcare and such, the children would go to the male with access given to the female..and also not taking into account that a lot of the time the male does not actually fight for custody..but then moans when the kids go to the female and he has to pay maintenance (which is usually not paid)

I know 2 men who got custody of their kids in divorces. And the reasons were because during the relationship it was them who did most of the childcare so apparently the judge did not want to upset the kids lives more than they already were, which makes perfect sense. In one of these cases, the mother has custody on weekends. In the other the mother only has supervised contact as she was a drug addict and abusive.

Yes some women are also arseholes. Some of them act disgustingly, some objectify men. Sometimes women will behave 'like blokes' as a one off, on hen nights and such. But on the whole, nowhere near how females are treat by males as a class.

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 15:38

I apologise for the title, it was a bit today. But I make no apologies for the rest of the post. For those of you saying "not the men in my life" I throw open a challenge. Ask them to answer honestly, do they think women need protecting, have they heard male colleagues and friends refer to women in a disparaging way, and do they routinely pull them up on it, do they say nothing, or do they, on occasion, join in. Have they ever wolf whistled, shouted a comment (flattering or not) to a woman. Have they felt they might have made a woman uncomfortable with their behaviour? Then turn it around, has a woman ever made them uncomfortable, brushed their genitals in passing, or made uncomfortable comments. Let's see, genuinely, what comes back. If nothing else, if everyone reading this shows this thread to the men in their lives and has a conversation based on it, hopefully it will prompt all the lovely men out there to think a bit more. So when they see their colleagues behaving like this they speak up and call them out on it.

The men in.my life aren't awful, they're lovely. But, I have witnessed chivalrous sexism from them all, I have seen and heard comments that they perceive as flattering but I get cross by about women, and about how they are making those comments to my children. The you're pretty, you're clever is one my dad often makes. He should know better and I correct him.

OP posts:
Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 15:38

Goady not today

OP posts:
HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:39

In every street lives a man on the sex offenders register. And that is just those who have been caught.

Is this true? Jesus...

FloweringDeranger · 15/10/2017 15:41

... and are you going to tell all of us xqwertyx that are not so lucky that we must be making it up, or that we deserved it, or that it didn't happen? All the usual attitudes. What else are you trying to achieve here?

Why can women not talk about these issues anywhere without being told 'nothing to see here, move along, shut up'? Male violence is normal.

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 15:41

Happy you are missing my point. absolutely women need to speak out when they can but nothing is going to fundamentally change on a seismic level until other men call out other men's bad behaviour. Otherwise society will keep going the way it is and the patriarchy keeps on motoring along!

Why can't people see this instead of saying 'well my husband, son, brother and father are all lovely' so therefore this is not a problem?

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:41

Just because it's not all men it doesn't mean it's not a problem and shouldn't be called out by more men?

Of course it's a problem, there are horrible ones out there, you just need to look at the news this week, the relationships board on here, etc.
Absolutely they need calling out and dealing with.
I was just responding to the question "are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?"
Of course they're not, there's plenty of great ones out there too. You just don't get to hear about the nice side of things do you, as usually people only speak up if there's a problem and don't start threads about how lovely their partner is, or the news don't report on those who are going about their lives respectfully and kindly, do they.

xqwertyx · 15/10/2017 15:42

@stitchglitched i dont need to thank the stars for anything - i make my own decision to not be sexist. If this post was against a certain race rather than a certain sex it would be banned. Racism isnt ok but apparently sexism is.

Feel sorry for anyone unfortunate enough to have a penis around you bunch of crazies.

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