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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
KnockMeDown · 15/10/2017 14:17

Thank you, Old.

Thinking about it a bit more, kids will copy and play out what they see at home, and that goes for girls and boys. If they see this sort of behaviour from the father, and if they see their mother put up with it, they will think it's normal, and the cycle continues. It is too simple to lay the fault at mothers or fathers.

deadringer · 15/10/2017 14:18

Sadly, yanbu

whoareyoukidding · 15/10/2017 14:19

YANBU

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 15/10/2017 14:19

YANBU

Great post

Why men are so often not speaking out is becuase it doesn't impact their lives in the same way they don't feel that intimidation and if things are to change how will that impact them

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:19

I also think us mothers of sons should stop getting defensive when people point out how dangerous men as a class are. I see it here all the time. “Oh well I supposed I raising a future rapist am I?” followed by accusations of feminazis or some such tripe. Not purposefully no but given the rate men rape it’s not exactly reaching for the stars to suggest that your son or my son could one day end raping someone. This attitude is not helpful, it doesn’t help either sex.

AnyFucker · 15/10/2017 14:21

The solution to this is not for women to draw the line and accept no more

It is for men to acknowledge their collective responsibility and call out every single instance they see of shit male behaviour toward females

And for apologists of both sexes to stop going along with it for an easy life, even if it means they are personally inconvenienced

It is possible to do this....but I am not holding my breath

Lethaldrizzle · 15/10/2017 14:21

I don't think men learn how to abuse women from other women but I do think some types of men are enabled by their mothers in the way they were brought up, put on pedestals etc. I think donald trump's mother probably had alot to do with the way he turned out as did his father. But as women we should try and stop this cycle of abuse and that starts with us not treating our sons like little princes.

birdsEyeBugEye · 15/10/2017 14:22

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ferretsHateFeminists · 15/10/2017 14:23

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LeavesinAutumn · 15/10/2017 14:24

I know not all men are like this, dh for one and my male best friend.
They are not like this in a million years, other men in mine and dh family though... Sleeze balls. Even fil tried today cop and look with wild staring eyes as I was breastfeeding my two day old baby.
A cousins groom was hitting on other cousins girl friend night be for weddings

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:25

Because it’s men who have historically overpowered and oppressed women. Of course it’s their fucking responsibility to stop it.

Would you say it’s up to black people to stop racism, and that it’s not the responsibility of white people?

deadringer · 15/10/2017 14:27

Was it germaine green that said women have no idea how much men hate them. I really think she is right. I think most men like and even love individual women, but when it comes to women as a whole, most of them despise us.

SignoraCarmignola · 15/10/2017 14:27

I also think us mothers of sons should stop getting defensive when people point out how dangerous men as a class are

Absolutely, many a thread on male violence and misogyny has been derailed by people being very defensive on their fathers/brothers/sons' behalf.

I have sons. I did our best to bring them up to not be misogynistic and they appear to me to be respectful of women. But I'm not with them all the time and I can't know that they are always so.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:28

dead yes (although it’s Greer 😂) something like “women can’t afford to know how much men hate them”. It’s so true it’s eerie

LegallyBronde · 15/10/2017 14:28

OP You have articulated very much how I have felt this week. I have always been a feminist but this week has me raging to the point of reading an article in the new scientist about female dolphins weaponising their vaginas and thought fuck me that's a great idea! HmmConfused.

It's just so bloody insidious. The papers, film, colleagues and dickheads in Tesco who called me a stuck up bitch because I reversed into a space and he had to wait for me to finish my manoeuvre

MartinJD · 15/10/2017 14:29

You are clearly being unreasonable. Stereotyping all men is a form of reverse sexism.

Best,
MJD

SignoraCarmignola · 15/10/2017 14:29

Yes, that is a pretty creepy thing to do. Snitching on your friends to be a feminist ally.

You what, now?

brilliantslight · 15/10/2017 14:29

YABU.

Considering there is supposedly more equality between the sexes it is odd that the proliferation and easy access to porn has become commonplace. There has to be a link between the two.

It is amazing that the technology for an iphone was developed but we couldn't get any technology in place to stop children viewing porn.

brilliantslight · 15/10/2017 14:30

Shoukd have said YANBU!

EvoCo2 · 15/10/2017 14:30

Snitching on your friends to become a feminist ally

What on earth? He's her DH. Of course he should be honest with her about everything. It's not Signora's fault that these men were having such awful conversations. If the men in question were unwilling to say the awful things they did directly to women (including their DMs, DDs and DWs) then perhaps they shouldn't be said at all.

I don't have disrespectful conversations about men with my friends. Why is it that I can't expect the same respect from the opposite sex without being part of a 'feminist ally' accusation?

PuntasticUsername · 15/10/2017 14:32

"SignoraCarmignola

Yes, that is a pretty creepy thing to do. Snitching on your friends to be a feminist ally.

You what, now?"

It's perfectly obvious, Signora. He should have put bros before hos Hmm

Aridane · 15/10/2017 14:32

What is a NAMALT?

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 14:33

So those who think that men as a whole don't have any responsibility, do you think that it is pure coincidence that nearly all sexual offenders are men? That they just randomly decided to perpetrate these crimes without there being any backdrop of a culture of misogyny and male entitlement?

birdsEyeBugEye · 15/10/2017 14:34

SignoraCarmignola

Strange use of commas, now?

You were describing creepiness, I thought. A grown man telling tales to his wife about colleagues being rude and she isn't even sure that he didn't join in.

He definitely seems creepy.

SignoraCarmignola · 15/10/2017 14:35

Exactly Evo. In any case, they were not 'friends', they were simply people he worked with.

But I'm cool with you calling my late husband a 'creep' - it can't hurt him and I fear you don't know any better.