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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
LongWavyHair · 15/10/2017 14:36

Maybe as mums we are not doing very well in raising boys

Speak for yourselves.

Seeingadistance · 15/10/2017 14:38

YANBU. It makes me feel physically sick.

deadringer · 15/10/2017 14:38

Thanks cherry, bloody auto correct!

SignoraCarmignola · 15/10/2017 14:39

It's perfectly obvious, Signora. He should have put bros before hos Indeed, silly me.

He definitely seems creepy. See above.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:41

Stereotyping all men is a form of reverse sexism.

What are you doing to stop male oppression of women then?

Hugs and Kisses
CCDM

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 14:42

Yes and it won't stop.

They don't want it to, not really.
They won't be persuaded to give up their privilege.

They are physically stronger than us, they are equal in number and they are, when it comes down to it fundamentally led by their dicks.

We're fucked and I say this as a mother of three sons.

NameChanger22 · 15/10/2017 14:42

I agree.

However, I've come across more emotionally abusive than sexually abusive men, so I tend to think this is more common; and just as, if not more, harmful.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:43

So those who think that men as a whole don't have any responsibility, do you think that it is pure coincidence that nearly all sexual offenders are men? That they just randomly decided to perpetrate these crimes without there being any backdrop of a culture of misogyny and male entitlement?

No it’s because they can’t help themselves, duh, Mother Nature gave them testosterone so blame her, AND blaming Mother Nature is in keeping with blaming females for all the wrongdoing of men 👍🏽

DJBaggySmalls · 15/10/2017 14:44

Yanbu. Men who love women dont watch porn. Men who watch porn dont like women.

If women had that much influence, our sons would have our accent. Not the accent of their peers.

wrenika · 15/10/2017 14:44

Of course you're being ridiculous. You cannot and should not brand all males by the small minority representing negative behaviour. A thread asking for negative experiences is not representative of females as a whole. It's a tiny number of females. Just as the men in these news articles are a small number of males.
Your inflammatory title utterly degrades whatever argument you intend to make.

Beamur · 15/10/2017 14:45

The news with regard to this has been especially shocking this week. The story about the girl in Birmingham was just awful, what kind of person treats a vulnerable girl like that.
I don't think most men are creeps but it only takes a few to cause misery.
I wish I knew what the answer was to create a kinder more equal society.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:46

They won't be persuaded to give up their privilege.

It breaks my heart but I think this is why men will never work together to stop sexism. They just don’t care.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:48

It's a tiny number of females.

It’s really not. 1 in 5 women are victims of sexual violence. It’s men doing it. 85,000 women a year in the U.K. are raped.

If that was, for example, a disease affecting that many people, the government would pour all its resources into stopping it, it would be called an epidemic. Think about why it isn’t the case though.

MartinJD · 15/10/2017 14:49

CherryChasingDotMuncher: You are conflating two issues here.

Cheers,
MJD

MrsDustyBusty · 15/10/2017 14:49

You cannot and should not brand all males by the small minority representing negative behaviour

The problem is that it's not a small minority. If it's a minority, it's a significant one enabled by a very significant number of men, particularly, but women, too.

Holowiwi · 15/10/2017 14:51

Easy, stop having relationships with men maybe don't even have male children if you are in a country that allows it. You think 'men' will do anything unless their lives are affected or the problem is constantly thrown in their faces? they won't why would they
You think civil rights activists just sat down with their friends saying it's white people that need to change we will just sit here till they do.
No of course not they had to fight (and still fight) for every single forward step.
The only problem is that these 'men' are your brothers, sons, partners and fathers.

Also women are involved in their upbringing probably more so than men considering the number of deadbeat fathers there are put there. So this whole stand back and wait for them to change mentality is odd since you have input into how they are raised.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:51

Am I Martin? Which issues?
The one where men as a class are oppressing women? And the one where someone has recognised that and posted about it on the internet?

Seriously though, do you do anything to stop sexism and oppression against women when you see it? Or does the idea of women pushing back offend you so you come onto an anonymous Internet forum to tell us on thread after thread that we’re all wrong?

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 14:52

When something like 98% of sex offenders are men, it is time to recognise there is a problem with men as a class, not just the odd rogue individual.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 14:52

It's not a minority.

The best we can realistically do is acknowledge this, face up to what we're dealing with and educate our children accordingly.

That's it.

holdthewine · 15/10/2017 14:54

I know plenty of women who haven’t been assaulted and have or had a father, brothers, husband and sons who are all good non-assaulting men. Of course it’s an issue but we shouldn’t tar them all with the same brush.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 14:54

I used to be persuaded by men like you MJD.

Your target audience will probably be joining us in about a decade.
Better look elsewhere darling. We're not buying it.

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 14:54

Great but depressing post op

Men absolutely need to stand up for women and call out this behaviour. It is too normalised even among women

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 14:55

I don't think most men are creept BUT, most men are happy to ignore the creeps. I recently had a huge issue with a friend of mine who I thought was 'one of the good ones' who spent ages in a pub telling everyone that false rape claims are really common (and that women never get prosecuted for it) and that should men just never have sex just incase the woman changed her mind and 'cried rape'. My god, I was so angry but this seems to be a common view, especially among men. I didn't have the stats to hand but when I got home I sent them to him. Basically it turned out that in FIVE YEARS 109 women were prosecuted for false claims. 90 or so were sentenced for 'perverting the course of justice' which carried a maximum life imprisonment, the rest were done for wasting police time. So every one of the false claims was prosecuted. In the same period of time (5 years) there were 18,000 successful rape prosecutions. Which means rape was proven beyond all reasonable doubt. So why all the anger at the vanishingly small number of women who do make false claims? Why no anger at the 18k men who raped in that same period of time? Also every woman who lied was prosecuted. Every man who rapes is not prosecuted, by a long shot.

I also discovered while searching for figures, that in a year there are 1115 cautions given out for sexual assault, including 16 for rape. Cautions are not convictions, but they do require an admission of guilt. So theres more to add to the stats.

Its just crazy, that so many believe the rape myths that exist. EVen the so called 'good guys'...

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 14:55

maybe don't even have male children if you are in a country that allows it.

Which countries don’t allow male children to be born?

And it’s laughable to think that feminists are sitting back on anything. You can read, thanks to feminists. You can vote thanks to feminists. If you’re partner punches you in the face you can go to a women’s refuse, thanks to feminists. If your husband rapes you it would be considered illegal, thanks to feminists. How dare you suggest they sit back and do nothing

GrumpyOldBlonde · 15/10/2017 14:55

When something like 98% of sex offenders are men, it is time to recognise there is a problem with men as a class, not just the odd rogue individual.

Absolutely, and I would swap the N for Not in Namalt to nearly