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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 20:01

I bet you bloody will Grin

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 16/10/2017 20:03

We were chatting about the issues today at work really nice guy then said that line well men do get assaulted too and should be encouraged to report it

I agreed why would I not agree but then asked him why can we not just discuss the issue regarding women and girls for once especially when so many have publicly come out about one man I think he got the point

KrytensNanobots · 16/10/2017 20:09

Fucking hell, I just wish men would shut the fuck up sometimes. We're not talking to you

Sorry, I know this is an important topic, but you do realise this is the world wide web internet and not your own private conversation, right? What a strange thing to say. If you don't want other opinions or other people to comment, why post?
You can't police threads and say "not talking to you, go away!"
It makes you sound ridiculous.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 20:20

Kryten it may indeed be the Internet but she still has the capacity to decide who she wants to engage with.

If I don't want to engage with somebody in real life and yet they persist in their efforts then I'll tell them to go away, I'd probably add an 'I'm not talking to you' in for good measure if they were really getting obnoxious.

Cyberspace is no different, we retain individual autonomy over whom we speak to, if somebody isn't adding anything constructive and keeps threatening to flounce then the advice to 'piss or get off the pot' Is rather apt, I would have thought.

MillicentFawcett · 16/10/2017 20:36

You're trolling all over the boards Kryten and I don't really care what you think of me but thanks awfully for your input.

Women are trying to have a conversation. Men are trying to disrupt it.

KrytensNanobots · 16/10/2017 20:37

If I don't want to engage with somebody in real life and yet they persist in their efforts then I'll tell them to go away, I'd probably add an 'I'm not talking to you' in for good measure if they were really getting obnoxious.
She didn't say she didn't want to engage with just one person though, so that point isn't really comparable.
She said all men should fuck off as we're not talking to you. Like it or not, this is a site for both men AND women and you can't tell one lot to fuck off and stop commenting as "we're not talking to you."
Both have always been welcome on here.

KrytensNanobots · 16/10/2017 20:40

You're trolling all over the boards Kryten and I don't really care what you think of me but thanks awfully for your input.

WTAF?? Really, really not a troll, I've been active on here for years. Not a clue what you're talkin about "trolling all over the boards." Confused
You do realise that alternative opinions and experiences to yours are allowed? Or were you just hoping for a lovely big echo chamber?

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 20:44

An echo chamber on this particular subject?

If only.

KrytensNanobots · 16/10/2017 20:47

An echo chamber on this particular subject?

It's a really important subject, and one that needs discussing. People are allowed to answer to AIBU with "all men are creeps" with "no, not all men are creeps". It doesn't make someone a troll to have a differing opinion, or to be told to fuck off, or bore off.

Slarti · 16/10/2017 20:51

YANBU op. And while we're at it can we talk about how most muslims are terrorists under a thin veneer of moderation?

pallisers · 16/10/2017 20:57

Oh another man not really interested in anything women have to say unless he agrees with it

No, another man not really interested in anything women have to say unless he says it.

Usual boring, egotistical, hijacking of a serious topic (me me what do we all think of me!!!) that, let's face it, we've all encountered in men. really tedious.

He does neatly prove the OP's premise though - there are a lot of men out there who think they are really decent guys who respect women but in fact they are deluding themselves and are deeply insecure and dislike women.

hiphopcat · 16/10/2017 20:58

I can't be alone in wondering why men come on MUMSnet! Confused

KrytensNanobots · 16/10/2017 21:00

I can't be alone in wondering why men come on MUMSnet!

Because it's a PARENTING site and they've just as much right to support and parenting opinions as us mums have.

Slarti · 16/10/2017 21:05

He does neatly prove the OP's premise though - there are a lot of men out there who think they are really decent guys who respect women but in fact they are deluding themselves and are deeply insecure and dislike women.

So if they disagree with the OP they prove her right? That's some catch, that catch 22.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 21:06

It seems to happen a lot that when somebody starts an overtly feminist thread on one of the main boards 1-2 extremely prolific male posters will pitch up and successfully turn the conversation into one that is all about them Hmm

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 21:06

People are allowed to answer to AIBU with "all men are creeps" with "no, not all men are creeps". It doesn't make someone a troll to have a differing opinion, or to be told to fuck off, or bore off.

Well yes, but thats not what the poster that was in reply to did was it? They seemed unwilling to actually engage, instead preferring to belittle, mock and take the piss out of womens genuine concerns.

People have had opposite opinions on this thread. What they have not done, is posted their opinion, then moved swiftly onto basically what I can only view as trolling the other participants in the conversation.

Because it's a PARENTING site and they've just as much right to support and parenting opinions as us mums have.

Indeed.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 21:07

slarti

That was referring to one specific poster and the way they were posting...not the fact that they were disagreeing

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 21:08

I agree that kryten was spot on with this

Because it's a PARENTING site and they've just as much right to support and parenting opinions as us mums have.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 21:08

So if they disagree with the OP they prove her right? That's some catch, that catch 22.

Nope, thats not whats happened here, at all and if you have actually read the entirety of whats gone on then I am sure you would not have felt this was the case? Of course men (and women) can disagree with the OP without 'proving their point'. Its the behavior of the poster...

Melsop · 16/10/2017 21:14

Could some things in relation to the behaviour of some women be of mention?

Many women seem to be a lot more pleasant in the workplace towards attractive male colleagues and lots of women spend an ample amount of time sharing and commenting on pictures of "fit" men on Facebook. Does that not mean some women only value looks too?

Men seem only to be able to enjoy looking at scantily clad women in back street strip clubs, whereas women are able to go to their loca council run theatre to watch The Chippendales. Most workplaces frown upon discussion of sexual matters at work, yet I have met plenty of women who read and discuss erotic fiction at work (Fifty Shades???). Are these things not a double standard?

Just saying....

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 21:21

Oh very interesting first post melsop

so some women like the chippendale and read 50 shades

And that means that some men can rape, sexually assault and intimidate with impunity

Is that it? Have i got it right

Cos i cant think what else you can mean

Just sayin...

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 21:23

Yes because reading fifty shades is wholly comparable to knocking one out to a video of somebody's eighteen year old daughter being fucked up both orifices isn't it?

Sliding twenty quid to a lap dancer with her vulva positioned five inches from your face in a private room is similar to sitting in a theatre seat whilst throwing your (clean) knickers at a dancer in his sparkly y fronts.

Totally. such obvious double standards

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 21:23

Ive never met anyone who discusses erotic literature at work

Do you work in a bookshop?

Cos that might explain that bit

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 21:55

@hiphopcat, that is going too far. Yes it’s called mumsnet, but it is a site for parents and that means men should feel free to contribute. My DH is a very good dad and I would be happy for him and dads like him to come on here.

Men are guilty of horrible crimes, no one is disputing that, but excluding men altogether is going too far. I would actually welcome a thoughtful contribution from a genuinely decent guy on a thread like this.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 21:56

Women being interested in sex isn't morally equivalent to men being rapists Confused