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Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
CockacidalManiac · 16/10/2017 16:05

OhThisBloodyComputer

Since when does:

I didn’t even mention race

Equate with you saying:

And that was because another more fashionable cause over-rode the rights of those girls. Can you think what it was?

We’re not as stupid as your ghastly friends in the golf club. We know a dog whistle when we hear one.

TitaniasCloset · 16/10/2017 16:05

I'm the same. I always give people a chance. It's good to give people a chance.

AlternativeTentacle · 16/10/2017 16:07

Most people seem to have a few stock catch phrases "mansplaining!" "Patriarchy!" and no ability to articulate anything

Occums Razor. No need to articulate anything else.

You carry on, this is getting depressing. I was rather hoping for better than this

You think THIS is what is depressing? Fucking hell.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 16:07

@whatathingtosay

some disinclination to identify the perpetrators

In Denial statement of the year!

That's the same 'sex offender in the room' logic that allowed Mr Weinstein to get off.

You can't blame me for that. It was power and political influence that made the men and women involved decide not to say anything.

All this scapegoating of ALL men, when we all know very well that there were women and men who allowed that situation to happen. It's outrageous to turn a blind eye to it, then blame it on 'all man are rapists'

Still, on that note, I will leave you all to stew in your own blinkers.

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 16:09

@OhThisbloodyComputer, yes there were of course female social workers who let the victims in Rotherham down, similarly there are female barristers who represented the perpetrators in court. But it was nevertheless men who were sexually exploiting the girls. And the reason they got away with it for so long is because the girls weren’t believed. That’s why the conviction rate for rape cases is still so disgustingly low.

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 16:09

How many times are you going to announce you're leaving? Just sod off already.

CockacidalManiac · 16/10/2017 16:15

Obviously waiting for the yellow fog to lift.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?
Elendon · 16/10/2017 16:21

Of you go then OTBC

Don't let big hairy bollocks get in way of your exit out the door.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 17:05

@Elendon

Thank you. I didn't.

I did nearly trip over your knuckles though.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 17:13

I know the wise thing to do is ignore posts that seem designed to undermine or derail the thread, and to avoid feeding the ego of the poster.
But the goading and the dismissing and the misdirection and the unwillingness to address any of the considered replies to the goady posts have helped to illustrate the issue of male entitlement and the need to undermine women by silencing them.
I didn't expect a man, ostensibly trying to demonstrate that most of them aren't "creeps" to quite so liberally support the opposite.

PoeDameronLovesFinn · 16/10/2017 17:14

From the writer linked to earlier. Sorry it's long:

"What the fuck is wrong with men? Why does this keep happening?

The answer, I suspect, has something to do with the lack of real consequences for the transgressors. What does it say to the world when a man caught on tape saying that if you are powerful and famous enough, that you are, in his words, a “star”, then you can grab women by the genitalia, is given the ultimate validation of getting elected leader of the most powerful nation on earth?

What does it say when a majority of white women voted for a serial sexual harasser over a woman who would be our first female president, and who also had the added benefit of not being insane or evil? What does it say to women who find the courage to speak out against their abusers and harassers at great personal costs when they turn on the Oscars and see people like Mel Gibson, Casey Affleck, Roman Polanski and Woody Allen being honored?

What does it say when the message boards on stories like the Weinstein expose are overflowing with victim-blaming and excuses and intimations of a dark, sinister feminist plot to bring down powerful men like Cosby or Weinstein by accurately reporting on decades of nearly identical allegations from women from across the socioeconomic spectrum? What does it say that so many people are inclined to see male victimizer as the victim and the women victimized as greedy, grasping opportunists?

These are clearly not isolated instances but rather ugly and inevitable consequences of poisonous institutionalized sexism. These are inevitable outgrowths of a system that gives men accused of crimes too much power, and the women accusing them too little."

www.nathanrabin.com/happy-place/2017/10/9/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-men

BillBrysonsBeard · 16/10/2017 17:16

I have known lots of lovely men in my life and have been lucky not to experience any unwanted groping or abuse.. lovely DP and dad.. but I do think all men have it in them. They just either control it or don't. Testosterone doesn't has

BillBrysonsBeard · 16/10/2017 17:20

Oops!

It's testosterone.. it wasn't meant to have a conscience or respect. It drives them to impregnate as many as possible. But we are advanced human beings and should learn to control it... I have two little boys and will do my best to raise them to respect women.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 17:28

Will you flounce already!!

Its like gone with the bleeding wind in here

Anatidae · 16/10/2017 17:34

TitaniasCloset god yes.

I’m suffering through a work meeting at the moment where the sole uk based male is monopolising the entire time (everyone else on this call is across Europe and Russia and it’s getting late for us but NO HIS MANLY OPINION MUST BE HEARD. And first!)

He is also wrong, and talking over us all. It’s like they cannot sit and listen to the globally respected scientist from the Ukraine who is patiently explaining him why drug x does summat. He (male, BSc, no higher or medical qualifications, no tact and no industry knowledge) MUST be heard.

It’s exhausting. I’m so sick of it. Is it getting worse or am I just noticing it more as I get older and less tolerant of poor behaviour?

peggyjones50 · 16/10/2017 18:13

I'm shocked at the behaviour of young people. Both male and female quite frankly. I've heard both talk about the sizes of intimate body parts of the other sex. Living in an area with a high amount of "stag" and "hen" weekend parties make me despair for the future.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 18:15

Because if you run around blaming men for everything, and tarring everybody with the same brush, when you want those same people to believe you, they might be a bit sceptical

Ah I see that you are labouring under the misapprehension that this discourse seeks to persuade men of anything.

We're not attempting to persuade men of anything other than the fact that we're aware of what you would likely do to us, as a sex if there were no societal rules to deter you from doing so.

We are, as they say 'on to you'

However this is merely a secondary consideration; we are having a discussion regarding your generalised insidious and overt maltreatment of us as a whole.

You don't like the fact that we are able to do so and are apparently so incensed by this that you are hanging around and trying to convince us otherwise, ironically whilst conducting yourself in such a way as to confirm our beliefs.

But please do stay, make yourself comfortable, pull up a pew etc.
You're proving to be rather a boon to confirming the premise of the discourse.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 18:32

In a way the attempts to derail are rather validating. They prove 1) that we're succeeding in making points that misogynist men don't want made or listened to and 2) as pp say, they showcase what we're up against and allow us to hone our arguments

Thanks guys Smile

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 18:32

That's jolly kind of you @MissAlabamaWhitman

Mind you, I think you should have checked with @rufus as she will kick my arse if she finds out I'm back.

I won't take my coat off, as I'm not staying long.

How can I help you? Do you want me to say something buffoonish that proves that you were right all along?

I've got an exercise class to go to (there's a new knuckle dragging for beginners class at the Patriarchal Community Centre)

I should be flattered, in a way, that anyone thinks I am a machievellian mastermind who has devised a system to keep women down. It's quite surprising given that I lack your intelligence and social skills. How on earth did I pull that one off?

You might not give a monkey's what I think but I do actually want you to like me. Don't laugh. I'm pathetic like that.

Oh oh. Is that Rufus? I'd better be gone. Where's the back door?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 18:33

I can see you already!!!

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 18:34

Oh god I'm rubbish at ignoring

Sorry stitch

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 18:34

You're just being weird now, really fucking weird Oh

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 18:43

I reported this pillock earlier but apparently he was staying just within the talk guidelines so they couldn't get rid. Shame as he has managed to make a really interesting and pretty supportive discussion all about him. Just like many other men who can't bear for women to be able to talk to each other without focusing on them and need to dominate the conversation.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 18:50

See I don't believe all this stuff about 'men are obsessed with sex' or 'it's their hormones, they can't help it'. It's an excuse. Being sexually dominant is one way among many of demonstrating dominance and a particularly effective one because women feel particularly humiliated by it.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 18:52

I don't think you're some sort of machiavellian mastermind Oh

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