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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 18:53

@stitchglitched

You reported me?

For what? I only asked questions. I've been polite. Not been calling people rude names. Am genuinely interested in people's opinions.

The premise is that men are all creepy and we're all sex fiends. I've politely questioned that.

I haven't made any insulting sweeping generalisations about you.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 18:54

@DrKrogersfavouritepatient

Thanks I knew I could count on your support.

MrsDustyBusty · 16/10/2017 18:55

There's a huge mismatch between how you report your intention and how it's experienced. This has been repeatedly expressed to you but you've chosen not to take any notice. Why is that?

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 18:56

I do actually feel disloyal on these threads about male violence, because my DH is completely the opposite of the type of man being talked about on here. And the other men I know well now. But the fact that so many bad things happened to my DSis and me as children, and my father and brother were part of it among others, reminds me just how many men have done awful things to women and girls.

SignoraCarmignola · 16/10/2017 18:57

Am genuinely interested in people's opinions.

Are you? Because that's really, really not what I'm getting from your posts.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 19:00

If you genuinely believe you've not behaved like a fucking cock on this thread ohthisbloodycomputer then you are deluded

I don't believe you have anything to add here (apart from continued goady-fuckery) but I'm willing to bet my next G&T that you'll not be able to help yourself from butting in again.
And if I'm wrong about that then I'll be most pleased.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 19:02

There's a huge mismatch between how you report your intention and how it's experienced. This has been repeatedly expressed to you but you've chosen not to take any notice. Why is that?

Oh, me, me, I know!!

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 16/10/2017 19:12

Oh another man not really interested in anything women have to say unless he agrees with it

Hmm doesn't realise we deal with this all the time day in and day out and we can see straight through it we deal with this at work, on the internet, some in their personal life general interactions when we are going about our business it's tiresome still things are changing

Elendon · 16/10/2017 19:23

The nose hairs are long with this one.

peanut2017 · 16/10/2017 19:31

Ohthisbloody I’m interested to know what have you learned from reading this thread?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 19:35

dr

Smile
Anatidae · 16/10/2017 19:36

Am genuinely interested in people's opinions.

Are ye, aye? 😂

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 19:39

This was posted in the Weinstein thread. I have shared it on FB and I think it might be worth putting here too

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/life/as-men-its-our-job-to-challenge-the-culture-that-enables-people-like-harvey-weinstein

Seems the 'actual good guys' rather than those who simply masquerade as them...might be finally listening. Though why not before now..I don't fucking know. Its not exactly a new problem, but men are speaking out in droves about this recently.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 19:43
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 19:47

Amazing that you start off with a goading headline "Are Most Men Creeps Under a Thin Veneer of Civility"

Then follows a massive diatribe with some very dubious sounding evidence. (Do you really really think that a third of all college students would rape a woman if they could get away with it? Who makes this rubbish up)

Then when I politely question some of these extraordinary assumptions, politely, I'm bombarded with insults.

Not sure how this is hijacking the conversation. Nobody had to respond.

If I had been in any way unreasonable, then the moderator would doubtless have taken my stuff down.

Also, I never pretended that all men are good, or that there is no justification for your anger.

I just challenged some of the demonisation and the baffling psychological projections.

Sorry.

hiphopcat · 16/10/2017 19:55

Why are people still engaging with this poster ^

And why has not left the thread yet?

He has said he's leaving half a dozen times. Confused

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 19:55

If you genuinely believe you've not behaved like a fucking cock on this thread ohthisbloodycomputer then you are deluded

I don't believe you have anything to add here (apart from continued goady-fuckery) but I'm willing to bet my next G&T that you'll not be able to help yourself from butting in again.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 19:57

dr

Gin
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 19:58

@peanut2017

The main thing I've learned is never to assume that issues are up for discussion.

Was disappointed that so many people thought they could make their points with insults and personal remarks.

You made a good posting, @Peanut, about how much abuse you can expect throughout your life.

I'm not disputing that. I was sticking to one simple point, which was that there is no organised patriarchy, but ingrained social attitudes. I'm not defending sexism or even patronising behaviour.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 19:59

Sorry, I can't continue with the thread.
It's been a privilege to engage with some of you but the constant undermining is too distracting.
It feels a little like if I try to work from home after 330pm when the youngest DC is at home. But more upsetting.
Thank you though to those of you who have shared your poignant personal accounts and your insights.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 19:59

So how is your G&T dr

Satisfying?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 20:00

See you round the boards dr

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 20:00

I'll take the Gin though thanks Rufus

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 20:00

DrKroger Flowers

iamghosted · 16/10/2017 20:01

YANBU

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