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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
whatathingtosay · 16/10/2017 14:20

horny - I think some men (not all) have internalised these assumptions - they circulate "out there" in the culture all the time. BUT it's up to them to recognise them internally and to eradicate them. Not all blokes who get together are sexist arses making misogynistic jokes - there are plenty of more sophisticated men who are just disgusted by behaviour like that, and who see the perpetrators as idiot neanderthals.

To be honest, you sound about a million times more educated on these issues than your DH.

JoanneCoften · 16/10/2017 14:20

The majority of men I personally know; family, friends, work colleagues, partners/husbands of friends regularly say questionable things, or make comments that prove they look down on women.
Many women will do the same, we're so entrenched in the supreme maleness of society.
One couple I know both hold jobs of equal standing, both very successful in their field, the woman regularly travels the world as a keynote speaker at various conferences, she is amongst the top in the world in her field, her husband less well known. The husband talks down to her all the time, treats her like the "little woman" at home, it's sickening.
Even as I say it's sickening though I know I have issues at home, there are difficulties tackling certain mysoginistic attitudes in a male heavy household, and despite hard work on my part, it's a losing battle, to the point where I am considering leaving.

YANBU at all OP.

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 14:23

@HornyTortoise, interesting, I never thought of the Han Solo and Leia scene in that way, but I suppose it was so much the way men treated women in films back then, the ‘lovable rogue’, that it sort of washed over me. It also fitted with the character in that he was dodgy but gradually changed.

The Jabba the Hutt scene was sick though, and especially the way it was popularised afterwards.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 14:26

I think sometimes we all say something sexist and wrong to a greater or lesser extent

Yeah I think this is true. Many many times I have used insults such as bitch towards female people...or had to stop myself using that language.

Its less the sluts and slappers part, and more the immediate assumption that women who show flesh 'deserve' to be assaulted.

He did kind of make out that thats not what he meant, but thats what he said and until I went into details about how its always the assaulters fault, not the viictims...he didn't seem able to redeem himself or explain what he 'actually' meant. Obviously once I had gone into all of that it was claimed that he never meant they deserved it at all but that they should expect it as many guys are perverts..

IDK. I only just got over him believing fucking rape myths, and now this. Its a tad worrying

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 14:36

I see what you mean horny

Dh struggles slightly with some of very naive 15 year old dress choices

I have said to her that she looks fabulous but she has to be prepared for some stupid people to make comments as long as she knows that may happen she can where what she likes

Its hard though

LiquoricePickle · 16/10/2017 14:38

Title: YABU. You know that though.
Post: YANBU

makeourfuture · 16/10/2017 14:45

Another key thing:

Every woman must have a safe, independent home and independent financial security.

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 14:46

That is true, HornyTortoise, that attitude is totally ingrained, we don’t realise we’re doing it. It’s the reason why the sexual exploitation in Rotherham and other places wasn’t taken seriously; professionals saw the girls as child prostitutes and didn’t take their complaints seriously.

WyclefJohn · 16/10/2017 14:48

There is a logical fallacy at play here. When a large number, even a majority of women have suffered through sexual abuse or harassment and 98% of the perpetrators are men, it doesn't mean most men are abusers. It's the same logic that supports fears about Islam and racial minorities

JoanneCoften · 16/10/2017 14:51

Every woman must have a safe, independent home and independent financial security.

How is this achieved though? When there are children in the picture, and various circumstances like diability in the mix, independent security can be an impossible dream.

MrsDustyBusty · 16/10/2017 14:52

When a large number, even a majority of women have suffered through sexual abuse or harassment and 98% of the perpetrators are men, it doesn't mean most men are abusers.

Yes, it's all down to four men who don't have any social backing behind them. They're just those anomalies that sometimes happen.

PoeDameronLovesFinn · 16/10/2017 14:59

Thought some of you may appreciate this:

www.nathanrabin.com/happy-place/2017/10/16/why-women-sometimes-dont-report-rape-or-sexual-harassment

'Geek' culture, for want of a better term, has an extremely problematic relationship with women so it's at least a bit encouraging to see someone with geek cred speak out. IMO.

Anatidae · 16/10/2017 14:59

wyclef

I in no way think that most men are abusers. My personal experience however is that this is not a tiny minority of men who exhibit severely violent behaviour responsible for a majority of assaults. Every single adult female I know has been assaulted. Unless those males are very efficient, the problem is wider. I don’t think it is a logical fallacy.

It’s more that there’s a small (thankfully) minority of men who are extremely violent. AND a significant number of men who exhibit lower level but still extremely unpleasant behaviours towards women.

On top of that there is what I suspect is a majority of men and indeed society that has been socialised into behaviours and opinions like the ones hornytortoise a husband is displaying.

It’s a complex issue. A bloke who is decent generally and has never really thought deeply about the ‘dressing like that you deserve it’ thing isn’t the same as a violent rapist or abuser. At the same time though, they are different manifestations of the same issue. It’s one society as a whole has to tackle.

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 14:59

I've been doing a lot of (depressing) reading today as I'm sure many of us have - news reports, comments, social media and so on.
I think the HW will prove the tip of the iceberg as discussed here and elsewhere on MN and from what I've been reading the music industry will be next.
I've been following this and similar threads and it's just sickening how many women have been affected and how many are so conditioned to accept certain behaviour they're only just realising how wrong it is

Zaurak · 16/10/2017 15:04

It’s theough every level of business.

I know a senior corporate counsel who was almost raped in a taxi back from a work meeting. It was made clear to her that resigning quietly with a glowing reference was the only option she had if she wanted to keep her career.

It’s endemic. I’m trying to open my husbands eyes about this - he is a decent chap who wouldn’t dream these things would happen and I do use these news stories as a talking point to explain that it does happen, it’s not women on a witch hunt against men and it happens all the time.

I once asked him to be totally honest and think what men would do to women if there were zero repercussions to their behaviour from the law or those around them. We had quite a harrowing conversation from there on in.

We are prey. And we know it.

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 15:16

It’s theough every level of business.
Oh, I agree - I meant from what I've been reading a lid will blow on the music biz soon. I know we've had mutterings and rumblings from that industry, artists in particular but it sounds like big names in the industry might be named.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:16

@Mittens1969

It’s the reason why the sexual exploitation in Rotherham and other places wasn’t taken seriously; professionals saw the girls as child prostitutes and didn’t take their complaints seriously.

The 'professionals' who didn't take the girls seriously were female social workers and police officers and politicians.

And that was because another more fashionable cause over-rode the rights of those girls. Can you think what it was?

No feminists have ever organised any Pussy Hat marches through Rotherham.

You can't blame the usual suspects of 'The Patriarchy' for that one.

I wish you'd stop saying all men are rapists.

Then wondering why "nobody takes our claims seriously'.

Because if you run around blaming men for everything, and tarring everybody with the same brush, when you want those same people to believe you, they might be a bit sceptical

WyclefJohn · 16/10/2017 15:18

Yes, it's all down to four men who don't have any social backing behind them. They're just those anomalies that sometimes happen.

I absolutely agree that it is a widespread problem, and absolutely agree that it is a socially conditioned mindset. However, HW didn't just abuse one woman.

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 15:20

You know OhThis with every post you score more own goals.
You also sound like a twat.

MillicentFawcett · 16/10/2017 15:22

Fucking hell, I just wish men would shut the fuck up sometimes. We're not talking to you.

You're tedious creeps the pair of you.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:22

@GrumpyOldBlonde

If you agreed with me, it would mean I wasn't saying anything very challenging and I wasn't stretching you to better yourself.

So thank you.

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 15:23

Yes women and feminists were the main problem in Rotherham, not the male rapists.

whatathingtosay · 16/10/2017 15:25

Wow, oh, you've added racism to your misogyny. What a catch you are.

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 15:25

I don't fucking need you to better myself, you are doing the online version of manspreading here.
We also don't need you to challenge us - just bore off.

WyclefJohn · 16/10/2017 15:26

@Milicent, was that at me?

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