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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:26

Well I'm glad I've maintained my thin veneer of civility, even if MillicentFawcett has had her challenges

I don't understand how you want to change men, by making massive sweeping generalisations, accusing them collectively of being rapists and then making personal remarks.

There has to be a better tactic than that

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:30

@stitchglitched

Yes, they were male rapists.

But can you tell me why the police officers didn't act? Or the girl's social workers?

Was it 'the patriarchy' that chucked them under a bus? Unlikely, because the professionals handling those cases were women.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 15:30

The fact that some of the professionals who failed to protect the girls in the Rotherham case (whereby men were raping girls) were female does not negate the influence of a dangerous patriarchal culture.
It just demonstrates that patriarchy and misogyny and the associated exploitation and violence are endemic, pervasive and largely internalised.

MrsDustyBusty · 16/10/2017 15:31

I don't understand how you want to change men, by making massive sweeping generalisations, accusing them collectively of being rapists and then making personal remarks.

Oh bore off.

Why can't you let women have any discussion they choose without trying to act as a moderator?

Anatidae · 16/10/2017 15:31

The 'professionals' who didn't take the girls seriously were female social workers and police officers and politicians.

I come from round that way.

I can assure you that a huge stumbling block was senior management (generally male)
And the desire to not offend religious men.

Lack of pussyhat marches probably didn’t cause Rotherham. The same thing is happening all over s Yorkshire. Women’s safety is secondary to pretty much every other group.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 15:32

If one wants to be dismissive, flippant and obtuse then that's, evidently, quite easy but it begs the question of motivation imo.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:33

Wow, oh, you've added racism to your misogyny. What a catch you are.

@whatathingtosay

I didn't even mention race.

You just did. You've outed yourself.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 15:34

Sorry, missed some stuff out.
If one wants to be dismissive, flippant and obtuse about violence against women and girls and the pain, fear and distress it causes then that's, evidently, quite easy but it begs the question of motivation imo.

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 15:35

Well victim blaming is part of rape culture. Rape victims are judged and disbelieved in all walks of life, not just Rotherham. You have been very dismissive of posters on here and their experiences. You have mocked and belittled them. You, a man. Yet you judge feminists, the one group consistently trying to challenge rape culture and make things better for women and girls. Now please bog off, your posts are making me feel a bit sick tbh.

GrumpyOldBlonde · 16/10/2017 15:35

If we ignore him he might go away. As I said the equivalent of manspreading all over this very important thread.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 15:36

Maybe I should have said "dismissive, flippant, obtuse and goady"

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 15:37

@MrsDustyBusty

I only asked questions. Was not trying to moderate. Why would I want to?

If this is a forum for scapegoating men, fine, I'll let you get on with it.

I must say i'm a bit disappointed with the lack of range. Most people seem to have a few stock catch phrases "mansplaining!" "Patriarchy!" and no ability to articulate anything

It's like pantomime politics.

You carry on, this is getting depressing. I was rather hoping for better than this

Elendon · 16/10/2017 15:39

This is one of the biggest scandals regarding sexual abuse and still there are apologists en force on this thread.

You who are apologising for a rapist and serial sex abuser need to step up to drop the rose tinted glasses and understand the underlying causes of why this is happening. And then:

YOU need to do something about it.

MrsDustyBusty · 16/10/2017 15:40

Was not trying to moderate. Why would I want to?

For the same reason that men always put themselves in charge of women's conversation, if they can. And as to moderation, you've taken it on yourself to grade and comment on your assessment of the value of everyone's contribution as if we're answerable to you in a conversation you were never asked to join.

Why do you think that's an appropriate stance for you to take among adults?

whatathingtosay · 16/10/2017 15:41

Oh - Have you even fucking read the Jay Report? It makes it absolutely clear that pervasive sexism was a huge issue in the Rotherham case, both at the level of victims and at the level of the employees who were supposed to deal with them. However, there was also class prejudice in play and some disinclination to identify the perpetrators by race.

Your comments are utterly stupid. I suggest you go away and actually do some fucking reading on the subjects you're discussing, because you're making a complete and utter idiot of yourself with this parade of ignorance.

Elendon · 16/10/2017 15:41

Oh and to those who are getting off on this thread.

Sick. Sick. Sick. and Disgusting.

You are no better than Jimmy Savile.

Firesuit · 16/10/2017 15:47

From the link up-thread I followed a link to another article by the same author. I like one bit of enough to quote it.

www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

Did you ever watch old cartoons where a character is starving on a desert island, and when another character approaches, he's so hungry that he imagines the other character as a talking piece of food?

It's like that for most men, most of the time. We're starving, and all women are various types of food. Only instead of food, it's sex. And we're trying to conduct our everyday business around the fact that we're trying to renew our driver's license with a talking pair of boobs. So, from about age 13 on, around 90 percent of our energy and discipline is devoted to overcoming this, to behave like civilized human beings and not like stray dogs in a meat market. One where instead of eating the meat, they want to hump it. Again, if you want to experience what it's like, get a testosterone injection.

TitaniasCloset · 16/10/2017 15:49

Can we not just ignore the fuckers on these threads who can see a female group conversation without trying to make it all about them? Just fucking the ignore and get back to the main points.

I find men exhausting lately. I'm tired with a long term illness and I have noticed how demanding men are on female energy and attention and how crap they are at reading social signals. They expect us to be their audience and emotional vents like good mummies would. You clearly see it in this thread. Men come in and expect our full attention whilst trying to moderate the conversation get emotional validation and generally have a bunch of women running around after them. They aren't even aware how tiresome they are being.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 15:49

stitch gave good advice earlier in the thread being derailed

Just ignore

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 15:54

Should have taken my own advice!

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 15:56

sorry and obviously titania

Whose post i missed...apologies titania

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 16:00

OhThisbloodyComputer

You do not seem to be actually wanting to talk about this epidemic and what 'nice' men could possibly help to do to stop it.

Quite the opposite. You seem hellbent on making the conversation about you, and have spent a lot of your time belittling women, patronizing women and basically...sorry...mansplaining all over this thread.

Quite why you feel this kind of thread is a good place for your 'humour' I do not know, but really, it is not. Nor is it the place for your sarcastic comments about the patriarchy that you seem to think does not exist. The patriarchy..as others have explained is not an organization brainwashing males into attacking females, rather a power structure, that a lot of (most?) blokes would not WANT to see collapse as they would lose the privilege that they have over women. I respect your right to believe this is not true. I do not respect your decision to take the piss out of females who know that this structure does exist, and that it presses women.

Yes some women are a bit sweary. Yes some can get aggressive when discussing the level of male violence females suffer near everyday. Can you really blame them for that? Yes, some women do not like when a male poster comes on and basically says 'I am male, centre me' which is kind of what you are doing.

I feel confident in saying that most posters on here would take you much more seriously if you dropped the jokes and sarcasm on a thread about females being assaulted by males en masse. It really does not make you seem willing to learn, as you have claimed, rather willing to try and shut the conversation down.

TitaniasCloset · 16/10/2017 16:00

Oh no problem I was just adding my support to your posts. I'm so fed up of these kind of threads being constantly derailed by the usual fucking suspects and same pointless posts by women as well. It's every single thread about male violence. Every one.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 16:01

and that it oppresses women.

That should have been Blush

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 16:03

TitaniasCloset

Yes, you are probably right. Sorry for the essay just earlier indulging this after I even pointed out IN said essay that the poster is coming across as 'centre me'

I just cannot get out of the habit of thinking people may actually be open to change. And that I can maybe open their eyes a little to other peoples views and why they think that way.