To think my friend is mad for refusing to vaccinate?

[FannyTheFlamingo]

I'll admit, I'm a bit ignorant on this subject. My DD is nearly 1 and she's been vaccinated. It wasn't something I gave too much thought to, I just did it because I thought it was for the best.

My friend has done her research and says that she doesn't want to risk her son getting brain damage from a vaccine. She says if he catches something and dies, she could forgive herself, but she couldn't if something happened as a result of a vaccination. Is she mad?

I'm hoping MN users have differing views and are much better informed than I am. I don't want to convince her to change her mind, but would like to offer her some pro vaccination advice.

Or do I just keep my beak out?

*your

Saw this on Ifl science this morning and thought of this thread. :)

*Oh bloody hell. Putting others at risk, that should read. You get my drift.

If my immunosuppressed child has to be hospitalised with flu this winter on account of the "far fetched" risks, I certainly wouldn't be forgiving her ilk.

I honestly think it is child neglect not to vaccinate unless there are actual medical reasons you shouldn't.

AndrewJames I completely agree. This is one of the few things I couldn't see past. I couldn't be friends with an anti-vaxxer. I suppose it's a bit like Brexit

I honestly think it is child neglect not to vaccinate unless there are actual medical reasons you shouldn't.

Except that there's no pre-jab screening to determine if there is a medical reason.

No titre test to see if the person is already immune, no dose control based on body weight, no mandatory reporting of adverse events or even clear guidance on what an adverse event is.

Regardless of whether we choose yes/no/partial it seems fair to say that we never know the absolute risk for our own child until we roll the dice.

It feels like vaccines are the one area of medicine where informed consent doesn't really exist.

It feels like vaccines are the one area of medicine where informed consent doesn't really exist.
Only it does. No GP is going to vaccinate a seriously underweight child without investigating why said child is unweight.
Adverse events include pre-existing illnesses, other children having serious reactions, reactions to other things (eggs, for example) temperatures in the preceding few days. Oh, and the incredibly small, and it is small, group who have had serious conditions.

Neurological complications following vaccination are rare, and in most cases, represent a monophasic neurological event with good clinical recovery. However, serious and fatal complications have been reported. In general, neurological adverse events may not be causally related to the vaccine, and occur at much lower rates than same events following natural disease.
Miravalle et al.

Nobody ever knows the absolute risk for anything. We can go on the balance of probabilities and the known risks and chances.
And we know a huge, massive amount about adverse reactions. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Vaccinate your children, unless an actual dr tells you that you shouldn't. End of story,

God. wouldn't say anything but totally agree with you.

said child is underweight obviously. Apologies.

Nobody ever knows the absolute risk for anything. We often know the absolute risk, it's used all the time. Take the number of events and divide it by the number of people in the group.

If the number of events is under-reported then we cannot really begin to calculate absolute risk and our doctors will be under-informed through no fault of their own.

If they are under-informed then we will be too, and informed consent no longer truly exists

@Gilead you're quite right that there are situations where a doctor will say "jabs aren't a good idea in this case." I wonder if there enough of those situations if we don't have a complete picture of the (possible, not necessarily causal) risks.

Not taking a stand either way here, just musing.

"This is one of the few things I couldn't see past. I couldn't be friends with an anti-vaxxer. I suppose it's a bit like Brexit"

I think that's a bit unfair to Brexiteers. There might be valid reasons to support Brexit and the balance of the argument is much more subjective.

Active anti vaxxers are deliberately trying to do something that kills children; presumably because they are too much a slave to their own 'experience' to look rationally at things. Being friends with one is more like being friends with a child molester, a nazi or a DM journalist- no right thinking person would speak to them.

@Dutch1e

"Except that there's no pre-jab screening to determine if there is a medical reason"

What screening programme could there be? How many pre-existing conditions that you wouldn't know you had, but might have serious interaction with a vaccine are there?

No titre test to see if the person is already immune.

Not cost effective. Won't substantially reduce harm. 99.99% of people will not already be immune to M,M or R for example- that's the point.

no dose control based on body weight,

Why would that ever be necessary for a vaccine? The dose is tiny and quantity make little difference- that's how vaccines work.

no mandatory reporting of adverse events

Are you sure? I thought there was for new vaccines under longitudinal study, just like any other newly authorised medicine? Obviously not for the measles jab because we have the data.

"or even clear guidance on what an adverse event is."

Again- what do you base that on? I had an adverse reaction after a flu jab once. Went in happy to be told it was coincidence but the doc was pretty clear it was a known potential immune response to that vaccine. That's one reason why flu jabs aren't given to everyone- the risks of the disease aren't as high as measles or tetanus, so the risk balance is different.

"Not taking a stand either way here, just musing."

If you don't accept the premise that vaccines in general save huge numbers of lives, and not having the basic jabs is awful parenting, then you are just another nut trying to undermine vaccines.

If you do then I think it's reasonable to discuss some of the potential grey areas with some vaccines in marginal cases- the danger is that the loons use nuance as an opening to give validity to silly claims.

Gosh people don't half get het up about unvaccinated children. I take it all the adults on this thread are up to date with their vaccinations? Childhood vaccs don't necessarily give lifetime immunity, if you want to be responsible citizens you should probably go get your immunity levels checked yourselves because I'm betting there are many more unvaccinated adults walking around than unvaccinated children. Have you had booster shots as an adult OP?

I'm up to date including hepatitis and flu.

Yup, she is mad.

Glad to hear it, I bet you're one of the few on here who is though. I only mentioned it because I've seen dozens of threads on this topic over the years and the issue of unvaccinated adults rarely gets mentioned. Many of those hurling insults at parents who don't vaccinate are quite likely to no longer have immunity theirselves.

Adults much less likely to catch and pass on infections though as their immune systems are more robust.

I had a baby last year so had flu jab and the 3 in 1 booster, so yes I am thanks. Now am I allowed to be appalled at my friend....who probably doesn't even know that had I not had these vaccinations, I could kill her child?!

"Gosh people don't half get het up about unvaccinated children."

I've been very strident and I'm not remotely het up. No idea if the others are.

If you are going to waste time arguing with fools on t'internet why not let rip with your unvarnished views- where's the entertainment value otherwise?

I agree with others tbh, done research tends to mean read a load of bollocks on the internet. I have a few friends in the medical profession and all of them vaccinate. Surely they would be in a position to actually be informed about the dangers, given they studied this stuff?

I don't follow the reasoning either, that she could forgiven herself if her child died from a preventable illness, but she couldn't live with herself if he got brain damage from the vaccine that could potentially save his life. Just bonkers

Gosh people don't half get het up about unvaccinated children. I take it all the adults on this thread are up to date with their vaccinations? Childhood vaccs don't necessarily give lifetime immunity, if you want to be responsible citizens you should probably go get your immunity levels checked yourselves because I'm betting there are many more unvaccinated adults walking around than unvaccinated children. Have you had booster shots as an adult OP?

Apparently I am up to date on everything. Our doctors send out a letter if needed when vaccinations run out. I am also vacinated against stuff I don't need to be vaccinated against in this country, as I travelled to Africa fairly recently and needed a shitload of shots.

Can I think those who don't vaccinate based on a bunch of discredited crap they read on the internet are idiots?

Your friend's son is far more likely to end up with brain damage / dead because he's caught a disease he could have been vaccinated against, than from the vaccine itself

it's reasonable to discuss some of the potential grey areas with some vaccines only if I agree that declining vaccines is "awful parenting" and give you kind my credentials that I'm not a "nut" or "loon" in your opinion?

Not really sure what this means tbh. It's either reasonable to discuss or it's not.