To think my friend is mad for refusing to vaccinate?

[FannyTheFlamingo]

I'll admit, I'm a bit ignorant on this subject. My DD is nearly 1 and she's been vaccinated. It wasn't something I gave too much thought to, I just did it because I thought it was for the best.

My friend has done her research and says that she doesn't want to risk her son getting brain damage from a vaccine. She says if he catches something and dies, she could forgive herself, but she couldn't if something happened as a result of a vaccination. Is she mad?

I'm hoping MN users have differing views and are much better informed than I am. I don't want to convince her to change her mind, but would like to offer her some pro vaccination advice.

Or do I just keep my beak out?

@Phelangood. Plenty of people with autism are also fucked off that the anti-vax brigade consider their conditions worse than risking death from measles. Are they all fucking ignorant too?

medium.com/the-archipelago/im-autistic-and-believe-me-its-a-lot-better-than-measles-78cb039f4bea

Sarah is spot on here. People with autism aren't damaged or a burden. Having autism isn't the end of the world. It is not preferable to risk death or disability than risk 'catching autism'

Not mad, but misinformed and, IMO, foolish.

I inject my 7 year old with immunosuppressant "chemicals" every week because without it, she could lose her sight and mobility. She is up to date with vaccinations, including flu. If she catches flu or chicken pox, it means hospitalisation. She NEEDS herd immunity, doesn't just benefit from it as a nice by-product. Anti-vaxxers/conspiracy theorists are selfish and ignorant.

@notbadconsidering
A link? What to her well established medical practice that serves hundreds of families? It baffles me how people think that if these doctors are 'quacks', then why would people use them, see results and recommend them to others?

Grimbles - Why are you bandying about terms like 'catching autism'? It comes across a little disrespectful. Autism is considered a disability. Severe in many cases, and it can lead to very poor health, mental health issues, and early death. It is quite painful to read someone talk about the condition so flippantly and assert that it's better a child 'catches autism' than have brain damage through measles or infertility through mumps. The latter are unlikely to happen even if a child does catch a disease, it's not like our choice is as simple as 'pick a disease'. It's all a game of risk. My son was immunised, I didn't know then that he was autistic - I'd sure do my research before I blindly let him have any more jabs.

I didn't have my second child ultrasound scanned for example as I read research that said while scans didn't cause autism, they could exacerbate issues in a child who was going to be born with it - I felt the risk was too great given that I'd already had a child with it. I was acting in the interests of my child. Some might say I was putting her at risk by not getting scans... You weigh it up in your mind y know?

then why would people use them, see results and recommend them to others?

Oh there are loads of reasons for this.

1. the "Stopped Clock" phenomenon. You know the saying that even a stopped clock is right twice a day? Well generally a quack might say something like "take this supplement and you'll be better in two weeks" and behold! The patient is better two weeks later! What an amazing doctor! I will keep coming back and tell all my friends!
2. they mix the quackery with genuine medicine. I'm sure if someone came in feeling short of breath with central crushing chest pain radiating down the left arm, our friendly Dr Quack would decide that it's probably best to not sell the snake oil on this occasion and they should probably calll an ambulance. Cue patient saying that Dr Quack saved their life and recommend them to their friends.
3. the patients see the results they want to see. If you love Dr Quack, and Dr Quack tells you to take Magic Beans to cure your chronic abdo pain, you'll get better. Call it placebo effect.
4. gullibility or stupidity. Of which there is a never ending line.

Plus probably a load of other deep psychological reasons, backfire effect etc.

As for the article, I respect her opinion but there are different levels of the condition - it's a spectrum, hers may not be especially severe?
I haven't seen any evidence that vaccines cause autism anyway so we are probably on the same page! It's just not something I like seen taken lightly.

I am bandying around terms like catching autism because it's what those wingnuts believe.

You cannot cause autism by vaccinating your child, full stop.

And yes, it is insulting to people with autism to use their condition as a reason not to vaccinate and risk lives. Like they are lesser people because of their autism and it's something to be avoided at all costs.

Are you happy for your child to be viewed as a lesser person? Are you happy to be judged by the anti-vax sets for 'giving your son autism'?

Maybe you don't realise the disgusting depths they stoop to in their campaign against vaccination?

"she could forgive herself" - that says it all. It is about her and not about the child's well-being.

Of course she is mad - completely barking. And irresponsible, both for her child and for the community.

Silly woman. Send her off to a graveyard to look at the Victorian and pre-Victorian graves of children.

"not"

Dr. Deisher’s testimony at the Minnesota House of Representatives on vaccine safety. She presents research demonstrating a link between the rise in the rates of autism and the use of aborted fetal cells in the production of vaccines.
thinkingmomsrevolution.com/mrc-5-wi-38-vaccines/

www.globalresearch.ca/new-study-in-journal-of-public-health-finds-autism-and-cancer-related-to-human-fetal-dna-in-vaccines/5402912

New Research out of JAMA shows the statistical significance of the association between the Flu Shot given to pregnant women and the incidence of Autism. jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2617988

In 1983, the rate of autism was estimated at 1 in 10,000.
In 2017, the rate of autism is estimated at 1 in 45.

Autism is, in at least a majority of cases, vaccine-injury. Of course, vacccines are not the only contributing factor.

Other environmental toxins are also playing significant roles in the increase - including GMO foods, pesticides, heavy metals from coal burning power plants - this is synergistic toxicity.

Genetics play a role because environmental toxins from a variety of sources are mutagenic. That means they alter genes. Those altered genes are passed through subsequent generations.
So yes. There is a genetic component, but autism is not genetic. It's epigenetic.

And the more toxins we are exposed to, the more vulnerable our offspring are to the effects of toxins, especially those that are injected.

Some groups, by virtue of where they live, where their ancestors came from, and what they did for a living, are more vulnerable than others. Factors that influence vulnerability include race, ethnicity, and gender.

The United States & UK governments have known for decades that some children are more vulnerable to the effects of toxins in vaccines. They have chosen to cover up that fact, in the interest of preserving the vaccine program.

Vulnerable children are being sacrificed intentionally "for the greater good" and that amongst other injuries and disablement caused by vaccines is what the "c*nt anti-vaxxers"'are so pissed off about.

Do you think we all just wake up one morning and think, "oh I know.. I think I'll go against all the mainstream advice, just for the fun of it?"

No one has a problem with vaccination,
Providing it is safe. Which it isn't. For many people. Why is this so hard to understand?

Your friend and people like her are selfish arseholes. They should all isolate themselves in one place and live. So everyone else should be compromised because of their ignorant beliefs. Let them ever need medical interventions for their precious children and you will see how fast they turn into hypocrites.

physiciansforinformedconsent.org

I've known four people who had meningitis (including my daughter). Yes your friend is being selfish.

Not judging your friend OP and I think it is down to parents to make the choice as to whether they vaccinate or not. However as a HCP I personally would always choose to immunise.

Wow - so anyone who seeks to prevent autism in their child is doing this because they don't want their child to be a 'lesser person'?!

No, that's not why mate. I don't know where to start, addressing the ignorance in that assumption?!

Autistic spectrum doesn't just stop at high functioning aspergers, y'know.

Interesting research jlm, I will read. I'm pretty sure my son's autism was caused by my labour though if anything, it was LONG and he was deprived of oxygen for a few seconds, but in a child predisposed to gut issues, I worry vaccines could add to the burden on his system.

@ThatHippyDippyShit maybe you should go find a thread that you actually could add some value to!

Why would the NHS pay millions into getting children vaccinated if it wasn’t beneficial.

Oh please Jlm151 physician for informed consent overestimate the risks of the MMR vaccine based on unpublished, unreviewed, statistically weak reports. It's not Science at all. You clearly don't u understand the difference between Science and Pseudosceince

www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/physicians-for-informed-consent-another-radical-anti-vaccine-group/

Also...if I direct my friend to THIS thread that has been written about her, it may go some way to changing her mind. If I told her to go and read a load of old threads, I doubt she would bother or care.

I have a compromised immune system due to my medication and I still think a mother has the choice and the last word.

Would you feel the same if it was your precious child who had a compromised immune system bird.

Jlm151

You've just posted links to Quack websites. Even the link you've posted to the JAMA is a letter to the editor that points out the statistical analysis in the paper was dodgy!

Sad and desperate. I feel sorry for you.

He’s putting the child and other children at risk! To not vaccinate is quite frankly stupid. I don’t care what all the anti vaccine idiots say there are health benefits to having your child fully vaccinated.

Wow - so anyone who seeks to prevent autism in their child is doing this because they don't want their child to be a 'lesser person'?!
that's not why mate. I don't know where to start, addressing the ignorance in that assumption?!

No 'mate'. Anyone who uses autism to push their anti-vax agenda and making out that having autism is the worst possible thing that could happen to you.

People who see people with autism as lesser people and would rather risk death and disability from the myriad of preventable diseases - or to be more accurate, the deaths and disability of other people, just to make a quick buck selling quack cures.

Anyone who ignores the reams and reams of evidence that says vaccinations DO NOT cause autism.

Anyone who says people deserve to have their babies die from SIDS because they had them vaccinated.

All this is going on in the anti-vax movement and much more.

But you are offended by someone saying autism and people with autism aren't the subhuman lesser beings the anti-vax make out to be. Go figure...

Sigh.

How is it we go on having this discussion? It should have died the death decades ago when the bloke who postulated this link was found to be a charlatan in the pay of the companies who produce the vaccines as separate entities.

As mothers we should all be down on our knees thanking whatever deity you believe in for this deliverance for our children from these appalling diseases. Or better still thanking the scientists for their dedication and the NHS for supplying the vaccines.

How is it that scientific progress for the good of humankind can be held back by these throwbacks. Another sigh.