17 year old girl walking home sexually assaulted by multiple, unconnected men

[NoLoveofMine]

An absolutely horrendous case in which a 17 year old girl trying to get home on a night out was subject to multiple serious sexual assaults it seems by men completely unconnected to one another. What does this say about society, that different men in a small geographical location within the space of an hour all had such contempt for women and girls they chose to commit these abhorrent attacks on her? It's hideous. I don't usually start threads in this section of the board but I feel so enraged by these attacks and feel more should be aware of this misogyny.

[http://news.met.police.uk/news/appeal-after-woman-sexually-assaulted-by-multiple-suspects-following-night-out-267602]

pie

Absolutely

Character witnesses abound in these cases

I'd like to know the background of these beasts before i condemn all males in the UK.

Personally, while I think “who reared them” is a partial consideration, I think I’d like to remind people that these men make a choice to assault.

Placing too much emphasis on “who reared then, what did they do wrong” takes the responsibility for the grown men who are in a situation where they can assault a woman, and actively decide to do so. I doubt many of their parents are there in the moment egging them on, making the decision for them.

I’m wary of a lot of things like this. Oh, society. Oh, who reared them. Because they ARE factors. But at the end of the day, I know people who grew up being beaten every single day of their lives who went on to be loving, gentle parents to their own children. Upbringing doesn’t dictate 100% of the time. The bottom line is whether people let their upbringing dictate how they behave.

Takes responsibility AWAY from the men, sorry.

This thread has really made me think. I’m shocked by the story and overwhelmed at the moment about how wide spread this is. The news from Hollywood is highlighting this but I did already know it was bad, I guess you push it away in denial some times.

I’m a mum of two small boys. Both times I had them (we didn’t find out the gender) I instantly “you are lucky” in that I meant as while males from a financially secure family in this country they are probably about as privileged as you can be. I’m trying to raise them right, I’m passionate about this and I now speak out when the situation demands (it wasn’t always that way but I’ve gained confidence as I get older).

But as I was reading this I was thinking a lot about the responsibility I have to my sons and the women they will encounter. Part of me feeling “lucky” when they were born was because I wasn’t sure I could raise girls without passing on my issues around appearance and the need for validation. How would i keep girls safe, give them confidence? But I realise I have as much responsibility for my boys and their attitudes to women.

I thought I was doing well but my son who is in year 2 told me they play chasing the girls at school. I asked him what they do if that catch a girl and he said he didn’t know as he hadn’t caught one yet. I found this funny and joked with the other mums at school about how there must be something instinctive about chasing girls. I’m so disappointed in myself with hindsight. I need to talk to him about how he makes sure the girls want to play, how he knows when the wasn’t to stop playing and if he catches one then he lets go as soon as she tells him too. I wasn’t prepared to be here when they were so young.

user, you have just raised a really really valid point tha i have never considered! My 6 year old DD frequently tells me about the group of boys chasing her, I've just thought of it as playing but actually, yes, what happens of they catch her? Why is it boys chasing girls? Think I also need to have a chat to her about it.

I think it starts really early on. With DS1 from a early age I explained boundaries to be respected for others and for himself too. There was a little girl at school who was very pretty and all the boys wanted to chase her and be near her, they were only 5. One of the boys tried to kiss her. DS said she didn’t like it, but that the boys didn’t stop trying.

I asked the mum if she was ok, and she shrugged and said, she’s very popular with the boys, like she was almost proud.

DD is 7 and I have introduced many examples of how behaviour can be inappropriate and to tell me anything.

Yet this isn’t enough. Because even though my kids know right/wrong/boundaries etc in the situation you still freeze, find it hard to process, can still be a victim. A boy was all over DD the other week, and she just froze. I stepped in, but had I not been there I wonder what would have happened?

So it’s great to prepare our kids, but until we get to the root of why boys and men do this to girls and women, it will never end.

I do not know what that is.

user that is a great post.

User

Really like your post. You sound like a great mum.

Slim it was me who said I didn't know what to do.

What I'm doing so far (my kids are a boy, 10, a girl, 4, and a boy, 2): Since they were born I've never insisted they hug or kiss anyone if they didn't want to. I've always taught them that they must stop immediately if they are doing something someone doesn't like. (Like if they are pillow fighting or wrestling around and one of them says stop). If they comment on someone's appearance (this is more the 10 year old as he's at the age of wanting to fit in and will tell me if he saw someone with "weird" hair or something) I tell them that it's none of their business, that people can look however they want to. That other people's bodies are not ours to discuss or criticize or touch without permission. If they say something is "for girls" or "for boys" I tell them how silly, toys/clothes/colors etc are for everyone. I never treat my daughter like a "princess" or demand she act sweetly or smiley or be "pretty" if she doesn't feel like it. I demand and model respect and politeness from them all. They all do the same chores, they all bake with me. I do not allow any internet access of any kind when they are alone. I tell them hurting is not okay. They only see their father being kind, respectful, and gentle. They see him do his fair share around the house.

When they are older I will tell them about all the things that contribute to rape culture and how that culture contributed to my rape as an older teen. How if the default position for women is "yes" then the fact that I was too drunk to say no, or anything else, meant to this man that it was okay, even though I couldn't move. Even though he knew it was my first time. And that it really, really, REALLY was not okay.

So, that's what I'm doing. I guess I assumed, perhaps naively, that that's what all parents are doing.

But if they are, and it still happens, then what are we doing wrong? What else can I do?

I know people who grew up being beaten every single day of their lives who went on to be loving, gentle parents to their own children.

yes me too, so I guess it's a series of things that makes some men act like this, most of which will never change without a complete re-education of why men should respect women and why women should respect themselves and each other (in some cases) - although how this will happen when the internet's awash with the most virulent, easily accessible porn is unfathomable,

I'll be honest, all the shouting about "who raised them" is another way of shifting the blame from the man to someone else...normally the mother who was deemed earlier to have more influence over the development of the child. That makes me uncomfortable.

As does the yelling about killing or harming the perpetrator. How would that help your daughter? What would that teach her about the self determination and autonomy she holds? And how much support would you, or more likely I suspect, your partner (because they tend to feel they hold the proprietary rights to their daughters) be to her from prison? All very well feeling vengeful, but not very helpful.

Women getting blamed for men's behaviour- who'd a'thunk it?

Yes indeed. Sad times.

I confess to not reading the whole thread but I think this problemm will get worse sadly and not better. With unrestricted access to porn from a young age, boys are learning that women are just objects for their sexual gratification. After school this week, my 11 year old DD asked if I could drive her to the park to meet her friends in next village. Because it was a bit of a drive and DH was cooking tea already, I sat in car wiith a book and waited 45 mins for her. I had my window open and what I heard really shocked me. 11-13 year old kids chatting in the park........lots about sex and the noises women make and what they do etc etc. My DD told them to shut up and stop being disgusting and got away from that group but it was so desperately sad. I have no idea if the parents of those kids think they are bringing them up with respect for women but all the time they have access to that stuff online it will be wasted. DD had also asked to change tutorgroup because a group of boys in her class call her a retarded bitch. One sat next to her in class last week and repeated this continually under his breath until she apparantly punched him in the stomach. at which he laughed and continued for rest of lesson. I expressed my disgust and horror for the language being used and my older 2 said it is normal in their school. I find it very very depressing.

The role of porn in all this needs serious examination. Goebbels understood how the attitudes and behaviour of a population could be shaped by propaganda which ststematicall dehumanised a group within it. Our school children all study this. Yet any suggestion that porn plays a similar role in shaping behaviour of men towards women will, outside feminist circles, be laughed at.
How little history teaches us.

Thanks for this thread OP, some great posts, and agree with this:
With unrestricted access to porn from a young age, boys are learning that women are just objects for their sexual gratification
and
The role of porn in all this needs serious examination

A 16 year old woman at a local private mixed school told me that in PSE lessons they had been taught that pornography is a male necessity. While in the same year, boys are allowed off premises to go to local town at lunch time, while 16 year old female students aren't, for 'personal safety' reasons.

Objectification, subjugation and curfews: all, in breach of the Equalities Act.

I have sons and daughters. There is far too much violence against women around. Sadly a lot of it is in the home too (which would be a separate thread). Not as bad but still awful is the every day sexism (such as men shouting out at women on the street) and what you might say is between every day sexism and crimes - men in meetings getting close to what Weinstein allegedly did. I don't think it should be against any rules to debate whether certain groups of people (whether male v female or a culture were women are kept hidden away and women out are sluts to be taken v our culture) are more likely to attack women than another. That is not racist. In fact if we shy away from addressing the issue we could fail to protect women properly. However we should never jump to conclusions.

I remember one night leaving a hotel bar near Baker St in London at about 10.30pm. Busy streets. About 3 streets to my tube stop. In that short period three totally separate men came over to me. I was in high heels. One had a friend who pulled him away - they were drunk. No one hurt me but it does just illustrate the dangers around. My daughter called in tears this week when a homeless black man jumped right in her face on her way to the gym early in the morning. I don't think he punched or physically hurt her. She did make a brief police report. Luckily other people were around who comforted her and when she refused to give him money he ran out. Our streets should be safer for women. If men cannot control themselves let them be forced to stay inside. Why should women continuously suffer.

I agree with @Witsender regarding banging on about “who raised them”. At which point are you going to apportion personal responsibility to the sex offenders themselves?

If a woman can go where she wants, wear what she wants, drink what she wants, and still expect not to be raped, then a mother can raise a child how she wants and still expect him not to rape. Every last bit of the responsibility for rape lies at the feet of the rapist. At every step of an attack, he has the free will to decide not to do it. I think it’s absolutely disgusting that people are trying to say that anyone apart from that individual man is at fault.

As for the ridiculous idea of vigilante justice, it’s yet another example of men (fathers) thinking they own women (their daughters). It’s the pathetic caveman attitude that says another man can’t touch what’s yours. Anyone who would actually kill an abuser and go to prison for it is absolutely thinking of themselves and not their child. The child has had their life fucked up enough, without losing their main source of live and support.

@JoanBartlett, you didn’t say the men who approached you were white, so how on earth is it relevant that the man who scared your daughter was black?

I agree with the first part of womblings post

But personally...yes if anyone molestes or assults or murders my child. Yes i would want to kill them. I don't believe i own my children and I absolutely agree that it is all about my feelings. I cant help my feelings, whether i would be able to act on them is a completely different matter

At a visceral level I want to kill the man who is currently abusing my daughter. So does her father and brother.

But We know that would be absolutely the wrong thing to do for everyone involved. Particularly my daughter. So even if the opportunity presented itself of course we wouldn't do it. I loathe the "lay a finger on my daughter and....." attitude. It's interesting that it's always "my daughter...." not "my son".........

I have two sons and I am terrified that society will influence them once they are out of my hands at a certain age. I do everything I can to teach them respect, good basic morals and to treat other people with love and kindness. But I don't want them turning into almost every man I have ever met and still meet on a daily basis. I have no idea what to do as a mother to ensure they won't.

Thats why i said children bertrand

The idea of anyone hurting my 18 year old ds makes me personally feel the same way

Why does it always have to be someone else responsible for a man actions alongside himself?
Who reared them? Mothers,fathers,communities,the state,relatives, adoptive parents etc. It matters not. A man makes a conscious decision to abuse a woman. His beliefs and upbringing might play a part but they still take that conscious choice to abuse and hurt a woman. To see her cry or scream and still keep going(let’s face it many get off in it). To see a woman that’s vulnerable and think “easy catch “ instead of “how can i help”.
There’s more fucking outrage about a 5yo killing a spider than about a 5yo doing something inappropriate to a female classmate. Because all 5yos know it’s wrong to hurt a spider,but how could he know that his hands should not be on anothers body. The spider thread got replies like future psychopath, look out for red flags etc. The other one got oh it’s a learning experience,he’s only 5, that’s kids being curious or whatever.

Because fucking men are expected to know that they shouldn’t hurt a single being,but there’s all this confusion when it comes to hurting women. Is it fuck.

They chose to abuse,hurt,rape and kill women and all responsibility lies at their feet.