17 year old girl walking home sexually assaulted by multiple, unconnected men

[NoLoveofMine]

An absolutely horrendous case in which a 17 year old girl trying to get home on a night out was subject to multiple serious sexual assaults it seems by men completely unconnected to one another. What does this say about society, that different men in a small geographical location within the space of an hour all had such contempt for women and girls they chose to commit these abhorrent attacks on her? It's hideous. I don't usually start threads in this section of the board but I feel so enraged by these attacks and feel more should be aware of this misogyny.

[http://news.met.police.uk/news/appeal-after-woman-sexually-assaulted-by-multiple-suspects-following-night-out-267602]

M4Dad - only a couple of days ago you were on a thread telling a woman to 'get her leg over' as if she was an animal. Now you're suggesting race is at fault? Nope. It's men. Animals who use their dicks for brains.

I'd hope so, yes, but isn't it a bit worrying if it drifts off into suggestions that all men are somehow complicit in the attitudes which drive violence?

Well it's only worrying in the context ofhow many men really are complicit in rape culture.

Obviously not all men rape, but the huge, vast majority of them never, ever speak out against other men.
They never call them out on their behaviour.

Maybe I mix in the wrong company, but while I'm the first to agree that too many men support misogyny, I really can't bring myself to believe this applies to all

Nobody has said that literally 100% of men do this.

But the fact is, when men are alone, are they calling out other men on their "jokes"?? No.
They don't.

But yet we are constantly told time and time again, that most men are not complicit, don't agree with it etc.

Where are they??

Where are the men calling out their friends for inappropiate comments or "Bantz"??

Where are the men saying "Dave mate, don't shout "oi oi" at that school girl, it will frighten her"

And it's got nothing to do with whatever company you keep, whether it's left/right/black/white/middle class/working class/live in social housing or in a mansion.
A lefty middle class bloke is just as capable of being sexist/abusing women as a right wing EDL voter.
A white guy is just as likely as an asian man.

I spend a lot of time in very "right on" lefty company, with men who would be horrified that they could be thought of as sexual abusers.

But you know what?

All their supposedly high minded ideas never stopped them coercing their girlfriends into sex (rape btw), making sexual jokes (just "underhand ones") or groping women at festivals.

They would be utterly utterly disgusted at being called a rapist, or an abuser, but it's either a massive mental disconnect or complete denial of their attitude and behaviour.

otherwise I would get a world of hassle.

Women and girls are harassed by men and boys no matter what we're wearing. Not that it needs proving but the number of girls who are harassed in school uniform (which I was wearing the first time it happened to me) shows this.

I think part of the problem is, we have a very toxic culture of masculinity and the vast majority of men partake in it in some way- be that rating women out of ten, off-colour jokes with friends, strip clubs on stag dos, leering and cat calling or sexual assault.

So when this culture is called out, men who would never sexually assault a woman but did in uni sit around playing crude 'hot or not' games start feeling defensive. Men can on some level identify that they are part of this culture, and as has been said, many of them are aware they benefit from it, but others are simply unwilling to confront their own complicity.

My husband supports equality. He does more than his share of housework, is a v equal partner, has made genuine sacrifices to support my career, etc etc. He still catches himself doing and saying things that are sexist. Little assumptions about the sex of the person he's meeting. He'll say something and then catch himself. We've been talking more about violence against women and he has been saying recently that he doesn't understand how women can cope with being in relationships with men - essentially, the statistical risk of harm that comes with that. He is aware in a way he wasn't before of the facts around that, and is generally open to the fact there are things he needs to watch himself on to ensure his implicit biases don't influence him in ways that don't match his politics/views on the world.

But while my husband is willing to challenge himself, and comes from a v good starting place where his default assumption is men and women are equal (I thank my PIL for that) but with some messy implicit societal assumptions piled on top, for me a key question is what is appropriate/possible for men to do to challenge behaviours in their friendship group.

At DHs stag, one of his colleagues suggested they go to a strip club. It was politely shot down by DH and his other friends who wouldn't be seen dead in one, but none of them said 'ew, that's really degrading towards women, why would we want to do that?' There have been other situations where my DH has quietly left conversations rather than challenging them- again, not huge issues, but the insidious ones.

And I would like to think more about what men can and should do on this. Because as long as we're the ones with the banners, and we're the ones lobbying for laws, and we're the ones policing male behaviour it stays as a women's problem, when at it's heart it's a male one.

This might be controversial, but I've read posts from mothers on here about their young boys 'playing' with themselves and teenagers wanking. According to MN, if you say something you're body shaming them for something 'natural' that all men do. In my opinion you're teaching them that they're entitled to get their rocks off no matter what. God forbid you'd teach them what's appropriate and what's not or that you can't just randomly get your jollies when you feel like it. But hey, boys will be boys. It's all natural. Blah fucking blah.

Where are the men speaking out about male violence?

That's an insult to perfectly peaceable animals, that is.

It's men. Men who are actual piles of human excrement.

And I can't stand not all men. I KNOW not all men. What I'm saying is, ENOUGH men. ENOUGH men that women are afraid. ENOUGH men that the statistics look the way they do. ENOUGH men that stories like these are frighteningly common.

When even one is too many to tolerate, the amount that are out there, running the gamut from normalizing sexual assault with unacceptable "jokes" to actually committing the assaults themselves, is enough that I'm sick of having to stop and mince my words to soothe the egos of men who would rather pout about being lumped in with the trash in their demographic than actually speak up and use their privilege to DO something about it.

Bottom line? You want women to stop lumping men together and crossing the street when they see you walking near them at night? Then damn well clean up your trash. Stop making it a woman's responsibility to prevent her own assault. Stop behaving like it's a woman's fault that a man actively makes a decision to assault her.

At DHs stag, one of his colleagues suggested they go to a strip club. It was politely shot down by DH and his other friends who wouldn't be seen dead in one, but none of them said 'ew, that's really degrading towards women, why would we want to do that?' There have been other situations where my DH has quietly left conversations rather than challenging them- again, not huge issues, but the insidious ones.

Indeed. It's good he and his friends did this but would have been better if they'd explain why to challenge that friend's view of women and girls. Also, though it's good your husband supports equality and shows this with his actions at home and in terms of your relationship which is very positive, as you say it would be useful if he could challenge other men on sexism when it crops up. Sadly, men and boys are often far more likely to listen to it when it comes from other males than from women and girls. That's why I'm glad my brother challenges sexism amongst his peers at school.

Very true faithinthesound.

@TiesThatBindMe I think you've misunderstood what the advice is that people give in those circumstances... the advice is usually to remind them that it's something to do in private, not in company. I've never seen anyone suggest that it's ok to do it anywhere and in front of anyone. I really don't think that this is cause of all societies issues with male sexual violence.

Well said faith.

And I can't stand not all men. I KNOW not all men. What I'm saying is, ENOUGH men. ENOUGH men that women are afraid. ENOUGH men that the statistics look the way they do. ENOUGH men that stories like these are frighteningly common.

When even one is too many to tolerate, the amount that are out there, running the gamut from normalizing sexual assault with unacceptable "jokes" to actually committing the assaults themselves, is enough that I'm sick of having to stop and mince my words to soothe the egos of men who would rather pout about being lumped in with the trash in their demographic than actually speak up and use their privilege to DO something about it

Bloody excellent way to put it.

How about telling them that they can't just do what they feel like when they fucking feel like it?

There have been other situations where my DH has quietly left conversations rather than challenging them- again, not huge issues, but the insidious ones.

And that right there is part of the problem. (Sorry not having a go at your DH btw)

It's that even the decent men stay silent, rather than actually challenge the view held by their friends.
It's all very well and good not joining in, but what should really happen is the decent men saying to other men "your attitude towards women stinks".

Another brilliant post Lana although I should be posting that about all of yours.

@TiesThatBindMe, yes that's what I said. I've never seen anyone on MN give the advice that they can do what they want when they want. The advice is usually to do it in private at an appropriate time. Again, I really really don't think that this specific bit of parenting advice is the cause of all society's issues with male sexual violence.

"How about telling them that they can't just do what they feel like when they fucking feel like it?"

People do, don't they? I don't think I have ever seen anyone say that playing with your dick or madturbating is anything but a private activity.

Oh, except from those "oh, bless them" threads about how adult men can't help having a hand down their pants while watching tells of an evening.......

As most of you are mothers on this thread I presume, and probably half of you are mothers to boys, what do you teach them about sexual gratification? An animal instinct they're entitled to? Or a privilege of a loving relationship. I don't need to guess as to the answer. Mothers of boys are the problem.

ties

Not fathers of boys then?

Assasinated But you're secretly telling them they are ENTITLED TO FUCKING GET THEIR ROCKS OFF.
No you're fucking not.

Fathers of boys just leave me cold. They congratulate sexual behaviour.

I think this is diverting the issue somewhat. Male sexual violence against women and girls is the problem and whilst I agree that anyone who legitimises this is contributing to it blaming women in any way is wrong. I doubt my mum has ever said much (if anything) to my brothers on that topic but she'd not be in any way responsible if they ever committed such an attack.

Self control? Self restraint? Respect? Nope. Wank away at your leisure - you're entitled to. Perfectly natural.

NO. You have a fucking brain. Use it. Not your dick.

But where do they learn their entitlement from OP?

@TiesThatBindMe, you're barking up the wrong tree, really. Men and women are absolutely entitled to do whatever they want to themselves in private, on their own. I can't see how this in any way makes them feel entitled to sexually assault other people.

I don't know why you can't connect this free rein to do what you like with your dick in private to a feeling that they're entitled to do it with a woman.

Sure they NEED to get their rocks off. It's HEALTHY. You think they don't look at a woman and think - oh - there's someTHING I can wank with? You really think there is no connection?