Nursery debate

[Adviceplease360]

For the past few days, there have been a number of threads about nurseries and the pros and cons. Personally, I am not keen on nurseries for under 3's and after 3 for 15 hours. What does everyone else think?

Having a generation of children raised in their early years by people other than their parents may turn out to make a huge difference. It feels like a sociological experiment we've all signed up to with no idea what the results will be.

So it might be great, but it might be awful. We've never had more kids in nursery than at home before and we just don't know what will happen.

THAT worries me.

It also worries me how many people say they would be miserable if they were primary carer to their children.

It really begs the question why did you have children if you would be miserable raising them?

My first was in childcare by 2 years old. Number 2 will be in sooner. We don’t all stay at home 😊

I know it's unpopular because so many parents need to work well before there child turns 3, but I do feel the same as you OP in that I have taken a lot of measures to make sure our little ones have a stay at home parent until 3. I work myself, but part time (and am on another round of mat leave now) and DH is a SAHD.

However there is also a reassuring amount of evidence to show that as long as care is provided consistently by a care giver sensitive to the child's needs, then they will be fine.

For me my main issue is not the different care provider but the setting of nursery - I personally feel it's too much for children under 3. But then there are other childcare options that aren't as busy and structured as a nursery, like a childminder.

I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my child in someone else's care at this age for large proportions of her time, but I also didn't cope well as a child in nursery so that probably colours my judgement (plus you're right, there have been some studies which suggest it is not always beneficial under 3, but I don't know how conclusive it is as I've not found it necessary to look into it a lot as it doesn't apply to my setup)

Depends on the child and the setting. We have a lovely preschool down the road from us, but neither child was ever happy there, let alone thrived. One went to a forest preschool for a while and despite pining for me, would at least stay and cuddle with the lady who ran it, who was also a friend. Neither did any formal preschool bar that, and the youngest hasn't had any formal schooling or setting apart from that month or so of preschool.

Both are quiet, like me and their dad, but happy, polite and perfectly able to share.

Oh and not to mention I would bloody miss DD if I was away from her so much at this age, and I have to say I did do a few months full time before mat leave to help save so we could afford to do this, and I did notice changes in her behaviour. But I know not everyone has the luxury of deciding to stay at home for 3+ years.

*It also worries me how many people say they would be miserable if they were primary carer to their children.

It really begs the question why did you have children if you would be miserable raising them?*

No it doesn't. If you cannot fathom why many people would not be happy at home on their own in sole charge of small children five days a week from birth to 3, then you have a woeful failure of imagination.

Apologies, bold failure there.

It really begs the question why did you have children if you would be miserable raising them?

Would you say that to a man? Nobody expects men to give up their careers to stay at home. Why would an adult woman who has worked very hard, gone to university and trained for a career that she loves and is brilliant at, be entirely satisfied wiping noses all day and singing nursery rhymes with no adult contact or mental stimulation?

I genuinely feel that some kids are very able to flourish at nursery and others really won't. The problem is that you don't know what your child will be like before they are born.

So having a child when you have no alternative option than to have them in nursery full time by 6 months seems to me to be a reckless gamble.

Nursery is an amazing environment for most children, and of course real life can force you to make decisions you didn't expect. But in my opinion it is irresponsible and selfish to have children when you already know you would be unable or unwilling to raise them yourself, regardless of what their individual needs turned out to be.

Papa I am saying that to men...all men.

My DH is a SAHD.

Why would an adult woman who has worked very hard, gone to university and trained for a career that she loves and is brilliant at, be entirely satisfied wiping noses all day and singing nursery rhymes with no adult contact or mental stimulation?

I would wonder why that woman wanted a child in the first place tbh.

I hate that double standard. Nobody expected my partner to give up work or university to look after the baby, but when I said I wasn’t deferring the year and am planning to go back to work when he’s six months old, suddenly I must have PND. No, I love my kids to bits but I am much happier when I can have more than the role of “mother” and “partner.” Being a caregiver of any kind can be draining, and getting out the house refills your energy reserves so you can perform all roles better. Some people are born care givers so this does not apply to them, but most of us need “more.” That does not mean our primary role and vocation, as well as priority, Is not our children.

furry I totally understand not wanting to raise a child. I don't understand having a child if you don't want to raise them...or rather if no-one in your relationship wants to raise them.

It smacks of spreading the wild oats...now available for women also.

Have as many kids as you like...as long as you have the cash to pay someone else to raise them....

Again - it isn't necessarily a bad thing at all...but its a massive unknown how a generation of children raised by others will develop.

I would wonder why that woman wanted a child in the first place tbh

Really? So would you question the male CEO of a bank why he is working and not at home every single day? Would you say you wonder why he had a kid in the first place? I will give you a clue: the work is unpaid, stressful, boring, repetitive and there is no break from it. You get no mental stimulation and it can exacerbate mental health issues. Has nothing to do with loving/not loving your child. People need variety, interaction and challenges. Also, parents are not always the best carers for their kids- especially if they hate being SAHPs.

But I know not everyone has the luxury of deciding to stay at home for 3+ years.

This isn't aimed at you specifically Cherries and I apologise if it feels that way, but why must this debate be framed in terms of parents needing to work, as though it's an unfortunate necessity? What's wrong with parents (men and women) wanting to work?

There are lots of posts on this thread that say some version of 'I have no choice but to work to keep a roof over our heads'. And of course for many people that is true. But it feels as though women always have to justify going to work by reference to financial necessity, rather than their own personal fulfilment- the implication is that it is ok to use childcare if the financial survival of your family unit depends upon it, but if you could possibly financially manage to give it up and stay at home, then you ought to. And crucially, the implication is that you ought to want to give up work and stay at home. And that there is something wrong with you if you do not.

And of course, this line of thinking only applies to women, not men. No man has ever felt he had to justify not staying at home with pre-school children on the grounds that he needs to work. Women shouldn't have to justify it either .

I am all for women having equal rights to stay in work to men.

I am worried that it seems the main way to achieve that is to force (mostly other women) into raising children for us....rather than having more fathers take a break from their careers.

There are more ways then one to skin this particular cat.

My company now offers equivalent maternity and paternity leave packages. Men can take up to 4 months fully paid leave...just like the women.

Morphene what crap. Having a career does not mean you are not raising your kids. It's just that you work at the same time so cannot be with them 24/7 and during working hours they are cared for well by trained staff who develop a good relationship with them.

papa again YES. I absolutely would question any man that was having children when neither they nor their partner had any intention of being a major part of raising them.

My wee girl has been going to nursery since she was 11 months old, 3 full days a week and she is thriving. It suits her so so well. It does depend on the child and it does depend on the setting. Finding the right fit is important but I get really annoyed when anyone insinuates that nursery is 'bad' at her age or that we don't care. We are 100% happy with the decision we made and we know it works perfectly for her and us.

I also think a lot of the time people who make these more narrow minded comments are either financially well off or have a lot of family support or have the sort of personality and children that mean staying at home all the time suits you - that doesn't mean you should judge other peoples choices.

A childminder never could have done that as she would have had other children to look after and would have just left her to cry.

That is rubbish. In many years of childminding I never had to leave a baby to cry.

There are pros and cons to all types of childcare. You don't need to make assumptions to justify your own decision making.

And what do you suggest mothers who cannot afford to give up work do then OP? If I could afford to give up my job and be a FTM I would do it tomorrow. Incidentally my son loves nursery. He really enjoys it and it's an opportunity for him to spend time with other children his own age. I have a baby and don't have as much time to spend on him one on one as I'd like. It also gives me some alone time with the baby like I had with him. I have to go back to work albeit part time. Quite often when I'm looking after the two of them on my own when my DH is working he's either playing with his toys in the living room or the TV is on while I'm looking after the baby and trying to keep on top of the house work. Going to nursery gives him the chance to have a change of scenery, socialise with other children, have new experiences and to learn new things. He knows we love him we make sure he knows that. He's two and a half, he's already potty trained, his speech is excellent, he's happy, well behaved and doesn't appear to have been disadvantaged in any way. Your post comes across as slightly goady to be honest.

furry I totally understand not wanting to raise a child. I don't understand having a child if you don't want to raise them...or rather if no-one in your relationship wants to raise them.

In what way does not wanting to be at home with a pre-school child on your own five days a week mean you don't want to raise a child?

I am worried that it seems the main way to achieve that is to force (mostly other women) into raising children for us....rather than having more fathers take a break from their careers

How many fathers will willingly fuck up their careers to do that though? They probably won't be happy or fulfilled at home either. So many studies have shown that nursery and childcare are beneficial. I mentioned in a previous post about Scandinavian societies which are often held up as an ideal. There, the majority of children attend some sort of childcare and most parents work (although childcare is shared more equally).

Long-term, stay at home parenting causes financial issues and possible future poverty. The courts have almost stopped making long-term maintenance orders for spouses- the expectation is they go back to work. The divorce rate is high- anyone who gives up a career is taking a huge financial gamble for which they will not be compensated for.

Oh and so many people WANT to work too because they enjoy and are good at their jobs and those jobs bring a lot of social good- e.g. teachers, doctors, nurses. I would rather that a brilliant teacher were able to secure decent childcare and continue working than if she felt she had to give it all up because she had a child.

I work full time and my DH is raising my child. It is very clear that although I spend the majority of my weekend and evening time with my DD, he is the primary carer.

If your child is in full time nursery then its pretty clear you aren't their primary carer.

As I said, being raised by others certainly isn't known to be problematic under certain limitations...and under others (particularly in the case of parental poverty) its known to be beneficial. But you shouldn't pretend that isn't what is happening.

but its a massive unknown how a generation of children raised by others will develop

So...putting a child into childcare means you're not raising them? I'd better hand back my 'mum' credentials then, eh?

The world our children are growing up into is going to be vastly different to the one we did. Automation, interconnection, networks, all these things are going to change the world. The job DS is going to do has probably not been invented yet. So, personally, I think relationship-building skills, co-development and collaborative skills and independence are great things for him to be learning early on.

Or he might be a plumber, who knows. Either way, I know damn well he loves his nursery, they love him and he's fine.

All this 'you're a bad mum if you put your kid in childcare' stuff is so...1910s. Damn those Suffragettes!