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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Nursery debate

304 replies

Adviceplease360 · 13/10/2017 09:21

For the past few days, there have been a number of threads about nurseries and the pros and cons. Personally, I am not keen on nurseries for under 3's and after 3 for 15 hours. What does everyone else think?

OP posts:
MadeleineMaxwell · 13/10/2017 11:32

We ought to be able to ask the question without imploding with guilt about our own personal choices...because right now we have no idea what the answer might be

Why ask, then? The only answer is to do what's right for you. Same as every other bloody parenting decision. There is no perfect path to take.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:32

podge so you have to be able to spend money on kids and take them places to raise them well? If working leaves you worse of than benefits then why not get back on them?

In other news you can rent a 2 bed house for 250 quid a month near here. So thats a 3000 pound a year salary required to cover rent.

I do wish the government would sort out the living wage problem....

FurryGiraffe · 13/10/2017 11:32

It is reasonable to question whether these latest developments are actually to the benefit of the average child. There are certainly some it will hugely benefit and others it will hugely disadvantage due to individual circumstances....but on average....is it benefiting children to be in full time nursery from 6 months?

Of course it's reasonable to ask what the impact of formal childcare is on children. But what you were doing upthread is suggesting that people shouldn't have children unless one parent is going to be at home with them full time. That isn't reasonable. In fact, it's quite offensive.

Ipsydipsy · 13/10/2017 11:32

I'm a sahm, wasn't any financial benefit to returning to work and we have no support network.

We are now managing to afford preschool for a few sessions a week and it's making a difference to speech and social skills after just a few weeks. Oh and I'm not a lazy sahm, we do plenty of activities but one thing I can't provide is other children to play with.

The key is finding high quality childcare, look at staff turnover, experience and word of mouth from other parents.

I really don't understand why women- and it is women, I don't think my dh has had a conversation with friends about childcare- feel the need to pull each other apart like this. Apart from a small minority most of us are just trying to do what's best for our families.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:33

That's nice surferjet but for so many, staying at home and running up a £15k credit card bill is not an option. They would likely struggle to get back into work after a long break plus of course they might not WANT to be a stay at home parent.

As for morphene, my guess is that you are on a very high salary (as it tends only to be the high paying employers who have schemes encouraging equal childcare responsibilities). You are talking from a position of massive privilege. One wage stopped being sufficient when house prices shot up to 10 times the average salary rather than 3 time. And when the cost of living massively outstripped the rise in wages. You have a little look at how much it costs to rent an average property in the SE, suitable for children. Then come back and say how people are just being ridiculous and could easily live on one wage.

CbeebiesAddict · 13/10/2017 11:39

Wow what a goady post! DS 20mo goes to nursery 4 days a week, he has attended nursery since he was 9mo although he started off on fewer days. He has settled really well, charges in in the morning and talks about the nursery staff when he is at home and asks to see them. He also has a fantastic bond with DH and I before anyone tries to claim he is closer to the nursery staff than his parents.

We need my income and I need adult interaction. When he starts school I will work school hours.

PodgeBod · 13/10/2017 11:39

Morphene I'm done debating. I hope are as pleased with the care your children receive as I am.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:39

mad because people like to make evidence based decisions?

If I'm planning a selfish thing by having a child when I intended to carry on working because some hypothetical science shows not only that children need a parent in their formative years and SAHM are superior to SAHD then I'd like to know about it in advance before I had the kid.

TBH if I'd known what a terrible parent Id make in advance I wouldn't have had children for sure.

Of course I very much doubt that it will ever be shown to be the case that parenting is better than nursery or women better than men - in fact suspect there will be a massive uptick in the value of nurseries due to parental absence caused by smart phones and by the time we realise we've raised a generation of part cyborg psychopaths it will be too late to quibble the odds on mums v dads or parents v nursery.

Spikeyball · 13/10/2017 11:42

Fewer children did go to nursery in the past but thinking that it meant the parent at home spent all their time playing and interacting with their child is incorrect. Babies were in their prams in the garden /yard for hours whilst the mother got on with the housework. And when they were mobile they were left to their own devices. I grew up in the 70's and children aged 2 upwards were out playing in the street with slightly older siblings being responsible for them. The past is not a time of great parental attention.

LoverOfCake · 13/10/2017 11:42

The problem with these debates is that when people come out and make statements such as "well this study suggests x and y," it automatically leaves people feeling judged.

The reality here is that the increasing need for parents to return to work has created an industry which is there to look after the children of those parents, and there are inevitably going to be issues relating to this industry based on the fact that for the people who run the nurseries/childminders etc it is a job but the parents want to think of it as a loving environment because nobody wants to think of putting their child in a nursery where it is simply a fact of keeping someone in work and making money from other's need to work iyswim.

Ultimately parents need to do what works for them individually, because ultimately what works for one doesn't for another, and the reality is that most people only use childcare settings such as nurseries because they have to. And when they have to they feel the need to justify it by saying things like "oh but he just thrived there/needed the interactions with other children/needed things I couldn't provide," when actually what most of them are doing is needing their children to do well in these settings because these settings are rarely a choice but a necessity. And for the most part, these children do do well in whatever childcare setting they need to be in.

I vividly remember my next door neighbour saying "oh we're putting x into a nursery because he's just so advanced and sociable that he's going to need to be in group settings where he is constantly stimulated." He was eight weeks old at the time and he went into nursery from five months. Her justifications had nothing to do with her child and everything to do with her going back to work.

If we were just more accepting of the fact that people have to make their own life choices for their own reasons and spent less time judging individuals on both sides (be that going to work or staying at home) we could perhaps be in a better position to look at these childcare settings more objectively in terms of how they're run and what they could improve on, rather than emotionally in terms of "won't someone please think of the children."

Personally I think the fact that whenever people ask about childcare the amount of people who come on and say "look for a good one but it means you'll have to do a lot of looking around, speaks volumes. Because what that tells us is that childcare settings in the UK are inadequate for the most part, and that has to do with the setting not the parents' need to seek childcare. The fact that so many parents do need to seek childcare means that a huge amount of people have found a way to exploit that by setting up nurseries/childminding facilities and they operate to the lowest possible standards at the highest possible prices.

Fact is that we are now a generation where parents need to work. So rather than questioning which setting is better for children psychologically, we need to start questioning what facilities a setting is providing in order to facilitate the best possible childcare that parents have no option but to pay for.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:43

Papa last time i checked living in the SE was not an inevitability but a lifestyle choice.

This is my point. Choose to live somewhere expensive...but don't then insist you never had any choice about childcare.

My wage is only slightly above the national average. I would indeed never be able to support my family on my single wage if I lived in the SE. Which is why I don't.

I think capitalism may be broken.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:44

There are lots of backwards people who believe that women have an innate nurturing gene and that men cannot provide the same care, Morphene. According to them you would be Very Bad Indeed for daring to be a working mum. Equally, there is research to show that parent care is best and research to show that nursery care is best. There is no conclusive answer. I think basically (especially as your are someone who has the luxury of working and doesn't do the day to day grind), it is best to let others make the best decision for their own family, just as you have done with your own.

GinIsIn · 13/10/2017 11:44

Morphene how was one wage enough before? Really? Have you spent the past 30 years on desert island? We have this thing called an economy. The economy is the financial standing of the country we live in. In the 80s, Bad Things happened to our economy, which made things like houses and food more expensive. In the 90s and 00s more Bad Things happened to the economy and things got more expensive. A house in 1975 cost 3x the average salary. A house in 2017 costs about 10x the average salary. Even on 2 average salaries the cost of living is higher than it was on one salary. I've tried to explain this very simply as it was a colossally stupid question. HTH.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:45

spikey I totally agree the past is no utopia of parental childcare...not at all.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:45

Papa last time i checked living in the SE was not an inevitability but a lifestyle choice

Are you for real? Well, I guess if you're not working, it doesn't matter where you live as you can just survive on fresh air and magic beans. In the real world, not so much.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:47

fenella yes...but if people only had one salary to spend on rent/mortgage would:
a) everyone be homeless
b) house prices fall such that we could afford them on one salary

Also come up north...4 bed houses for 80,000 here.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:47

spikey I totally agree the past is no utopia of parental childcare...not at all

So why keep alluding to it then and suggesting that bad things will happen if children are not looked after all the time by their parents?

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:49

Again...if people moved out of london would

a) there be loads of jobs not being done in london and mass unemployment up north
b) employers move jobs to places they can pay less money for them to be done

I thought the internet happened and jobs are all going to be different and more movable in the future?

GinIsIn · 13/10/2017 11:49

Morphene do you own your house? There's this little thing called negative equity you seem to fail to take into account there with your oh so sharp assessment.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:50

I suggested there might be a problem...but that it might be a benefit. My beef is with it being unknown but assumed to be fine.

This is something you would have seen if you'd read my posts rather than just assuming I was anti nursery.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:51

fenella yes...but if people only had one salary to spend on rent/mortgage would
a) everyone be homeless
b) house prices fall such that we could afford them on one salary

You're kidding yourself. You think that if people chose to live in poverty by spending all their wages on rent that house and rent prices would drop?? Many don't have the luxury of owning their own home- if they fail to pay their rent, they get evicted and put into B&B accommodation if lucky. The house prices are not going to drop either- they are buoyed up by foreign investors and the like. We have a tory government ffs.

LoverOfCake · 13/10/2017 11:52

From my personal perspective I would never use a childminder. Too many opportunities to cut corners, far too little supervision or accountability, far too many examples of babies left in cars, young children ignored, arranging with other parents to keep an eye on/pick up charges from preschool settings, discussing parents and children openly in the playground/the park/at school activities. If there are good childminders out there I am yet to encounter one, but people leave their children there because it's a home from home and the reality is that while many parents also do these things, when it's a childminder they're being paid, so ought to be operating to a higher standard. Also how many people recommend childminding on here as a way to make a living if they want to stay at home with their own kids.

But when I see (yet another) inadequate childminder I don't judge the parents for leaving their kids with them, I feel insensed at the fact that because so many parents don't have any other choice, they're stuck having to leave their children with someone who is making money from their need to go back to work. Iyswim.

Morphene · 13/10/2017 11:53

buying a house is also a lifestyle choice. If it means you can't then afford not to put your child in childcare, then so be it. It doesn't stop it being a choice.

Papafran · 13/10/2017 11:53

This is something you would have seen if you'd read my posts rather than just assuming I was anti nursery

I did read your posts. It was stuff like 'I would question why that woman had children in the first place' and 'I would judge both partners in a couple where one did not give up work' and similar that led me to think you were anti-nursery. Maybe I was totally wrong though.

MadeleineMaxwell · 13/10/2017 11:54

mad because people like to make evidence based decisions?

Well yay, but then the question should be being asked by social scientists, and not a bunch of mums on a forum. Tests should be rigorous, double-blinded, account for variables and all that jazz. And then you want a meta-study or six, right? Have we got that information to hand? How ethical is it to gather it in the first place?

What if there is no conclusive answer? What if there is, and one camp is definitively shown to be 'wrong'? What benefits does that bring to the vast majority of parents trying to do their best by their families and themselves?

Nowt, it's just guilt. Look at breast vs. bottle. Having the information there has conclusively changed both individual women's minds and society's attitudes and facilities, hasn't it? No, it hasn't. It's just more guilt to heap on women. This is all just so much misogynistic noise.