If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

[bbcessex]

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

M4Dad

Please, could you tell me why a separate legislature that holds another democratic body to account is undemocratic

Good luck finding where I said that

The example I give - quoted above is a description of the EU. The EU Parliament - the legislature - holds the Commission and The Council - to account.

You said the EU, and by definition the system I describe, is "undemocratic and totalitarian"

I think any organisation that REMOVES people for being corrupt, isn't necessarily corrupt. It shows that accountability is working - albeit it sometimes slowly.

What you should worry about MORE is when NO ONE is being found corrupt, even though there are significant concerns about corruptions and where requests for transparency are being routinely denied or you are not able to obtain records for 'Commercial Reasons'.

As I say, I don't think the EU perfect and doesn't suffer from corruption.

Its about this question of whether the alternative is better and whether it does provide you with more accountability.

Question: How do we hold the EU to account post Brexit?

I am quite happy

Fair enough.

I'm not. The EU's law making process is fundamentally undemocratic.

Have you got a link for that please? Or is that just your opinion?

This is good one as it highlights how British MEPs have driven the strengthening of the EU Parliament (we do affect things):

www.johnharperpublishing.co.uk/the-role-of-british-meps-in-pushing-forward-the-parliaments-powers/

M4Dad

The EU's law making process is fundamentally undemocratic

Why? Please expand.

We've voted as a country to Fuck ourselves up the arse. Let's just get on with.

The EU's law making process is fundamentally undemocratic.

Hey, my uncle Buddy used to say at family dinners, "The Bears are the best!" all the time. I asked him why, and he said, "Because I'm from Chicago!"

Who can argue with that?

You said the EU, and by definition the system I describe, is undemocratic and totalitarian

The law making process is undemocratic and totalitarian, the parliament isn't actually a real parliament, it's just a facade......

The EU is entirely impervious to public opinion, entirely! The people who matter in the law-making process are unelected and therefore unaccountable - of course it's totalitarian.

makeourfuture

Of course, if you could tell why the EU law making process is democratic - then I'd be more interested in that than Uncle Buddy.

Why? Please expand

Let's start off with this:

Who creates the laws?

The EU is entirely impervious to public opinion, entirely!

Brexit talks have stalled because the EU27 are taking a HARDER line due to public opinion, than the EU Commission are to the UK...

Barnier could make a deal with the UK, but this can be rejected by the EU parliament because the EU27's elected representatives don't like the deal and vote it down on the instruction of their governments. Or even worse, the deal might have be ratified by some countries by a referendum to their people. Who could vote it down.

But the EU is entirely impervious to public opinion.

I fear we might find out whether this is true or not.

Brexit talks have stalled because the EU27 are taking a HARDER line due to public opinion than the EU Commission are to the UK.

And the proof for that is......where?

I go along with J Rees Mogg. My take of his views on this subject, that:

1/ Parliament is sovereign and has discretion to act on our behalf.

2/ Every five years, parliament's sovereignty is returned whence it came (the electorate) at a general election.

3/ Whenever it is faced with questions on sovereignty or the constitution, then the electorate must be consulted in a referendum and the result of that referendum must be binding.

This is intriguing. I've had to break out my old Con Ad textbook for this. But It doesn't go that deep. Digging around for the Blackstone now.

I just cant get my head around why anyone with any political sense would want another layer of government over us .

I feel there is an assumption that the eu is scandal free. Its not. Its a behemoth, we can only guess at the corruption within.
Those with less respect for basic democracy and with more socialist/Soviet style thinking wont look on it as abhorrently as I do.
I could argue for the EU easily if I had too, I agree with so many positive points that get endlessly trotted out.
But the bottom line is this shady organisation who I do not not trust, far removed having power over us, its not necessary, we do not need it. Its bad enough with our own governments I do not want another one thank you.

But the bottom line is this shady organisation who I do not not trust, far removed having power over us, its not necessary, we do not need it. Its bad enough with our own governments I do not want another one thank you

hear, hear.

Do I have to find the quote from David Davis, asking the EU27 to free Barnier in negotiations?

Yes that's our David Davis.

I just cant get my head around why anyone with any political sense would want another layer of government over us

Well, I think this way of looking at is faulted. It is not another "layer". The EU only holds supremacy in certain areas. Nothing to with, for example, schools, taxes, healthcare, whether your garage extension gets approved.

The EU only holds supremacy in certain areas. Nothing to with, for example, schools, taxes, healthcare

At the moment....

Given it was created out of nothing, well out of a trade Union I don't really trust it. It's an organisation that think's it knows what is best for the people of Europe but doesn't actually care what the people of Europe think.

www.dictionary.com/browse/veto?s=t

It's an organisation that think's it knows what is best for the people of Europe but doesn't actually care what the people of Europe think.

The UK is an integral part of "it".

M4Dad

Who creates the laws?

Well for a start laws are not 'created' there is a process whereby they are made.

The Commission proposes legislation. Ideas for new laws can come from the EU Parliament, The Council or from other stakeholders.

The proposed law has to be passed by both The Council and the Parliament. Both of these democrayically electec bodies can amend laws or veto them. EU legislation goes through a robust system of checks and balances.

EU laws have to be agreed upon by two elected institutions. That is considerably more democratic scrutiny than a UK law.

Red

www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by-topic/can-the-uk-veto-new-eu-laws/

"In almost all other policy areas the EU is capable of passing legislation that affects member states without unanimous agreement. In these areas a vote in the European Parliament and a system of Qualified Majority Voting in the Council of the EU is used to approve or reject proposals by the European Commission. About 80% of all EU legislation is adopted with this procedure"

M4Dad

Please note I am responding to yet another or your queries and you have yet to explain exactly why the EU is not democratic.

Simply saying it again and again does not make it true.

The Commission proposes legislation

The Commission is entirely unelected.

Members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.

Is not possible for a Commission Member or its President to be removed by a direct election.

It's not legitimate.

M4Dad

Yep laws have to be passed by the Parliament and The Council. A majority is needed to pass the laws. That's democracy for you!